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Author Topic:   Kansas State School Board At It Once Again
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 16 of 136 (189044)
02-27-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by coffee_addict
02-27-2005 7:39 PM


Off-topic admin help suggestion
[off-topic]
I just got a big fat error message and lost 30 minutes worth of post with serious words.
Too late now, but I suspect if you had hit the "back" button of your browser, you would have gotten your message composition window back, complete with the message. You could then have tried submitting it again.
But I may be wrong.
The big moral is, prepare your major works in a word processor, so you have a copy at least until you're sure it is posted.
Please take any further discussion of this issue to a better place.
[/off-topic]
Adminnemooseus
Added by edit: You MIGHT (but I doubt it) still be able to recover you lost message by searching your computer's files for a key phrase in the message. Who knows, it may be cached away somewhere.
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-27-2005 22:12 AM

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Thor
Member (Idle past 5929 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 17 of 136 (189045)
02-27-2005 10:13 PM


I really can't get over these legislators who feel that Creation should be taught alongside Evolution in the science classroom. Has it ever been suggested to any of them that if such a law were introduced, then Evolution would have to be taught alongside any creation teachings in churches and sunday schools too. This would be the only fair way to implement such a law.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6372 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 18 of 136 (189562)
03-01-2005 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
02-27-2005 8:50 PM


Re: it makes me sick
I for one would have preferred wings over brain power.
But only because your brain power allows you to imagine how great wings would be

Confused ? You will be...

This message is a reply to:
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Monk
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 19 of 136 (189571)
03-01-2005 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by custard
02-27-2005 8:25 PM


Re: it makes me sick
custard writes:
Which do you find easier to believe:
A- You were put here on the earth for a purpose, your life has meaning.
B- Your life is meaningless, and it doesn't matter if you, your family, or your entire species ever existed.
What's going to be easier for the folks in Kansas to believe? People exist as part of a plan, or as the result of a random mutation that could have just as easily not have happened?
Please, I live in Kansas. Despite what has been posted in this thread, the State of Kansas has not run amok with creo's.
But this thread did alert me to this issue and the recent articles appearing in the Kansas City Star. I haven't seen any coverage in the local television news.
The KC Star is at least making an effort to present all sides of the issue. Here is a recent article.
Separate science and theology
By Christopher J. Papasian
Special to The Star (Posted on Tue, Mar. 01, 2005)
As a microbiologist, I am certain that evolution occurs. Genetic mutations clearly produce selective advantages or disadvantages for organisms that inherit these mutations, and these mutations radically alter the characteristics of microbial populations over short time periods.
The data supporting microbial evolution is voluminous and compelling. Microbiologists study organisms with short generation times, so we can determine the evolutionary effects of genetic mutation on multiple generations in a matter of hours or days.
For example, the enzyme responsible for replicating HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, is error-prone. Some errors allow HIV to evade the host's immune response, thus allowing these mutants to persist and reproduce while viruses lacking these mutations are eliminated by host defenses. Other mutations promote resistance to anti-viral drugs. In patients taking these drugs, resistant mutants rapidly become the predominant population because they continue to reproduce, while susceptible viruses lacking these mutations are suppressed or killed.
Another example of microbial evolution involves the organism that causes tuberculosis. Mycobacterium tuberculosis mutates frequently, and some of these mutations promote resistance to anti-TB medications. Patients with tuberculosis receiving only a single anti-TB drug often relapse clinically and transmit the infection to others because resistant mutants survive, reproduce, cause damage and are infectious. Organisms lacking these mutations are suppressed or killed, do not cause damage, and are not transmitted to others. Under these conditions, the resistant mutants have a tremendous selective advantage.
So, evolution occurs. What is God's role in this? Did God design imperfect enzymes of genetic replication so that organisms would change over time through genetic mutation? Does God intervene each time an organism reproduces, orchestrating mutations that produce gradual change, allowing one species to evolve into another? Does God intervene periodically, creating an entire new species (e.g. Adam and Eve) to inhabit the planet Earth? Alternatively, are evolutionary changes attributable entirely to random genetic events?
God's role is of fundamental significance to a substantial portion of the human population and warrants significant debate. The concepts of evolution and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. Evidence supporting evolution can be subjected to the rigors of scientific investigation, and presented in science classes. At this time, however, there is no mechanism by which the concept of intelligent design can be studied scientifically. Consequently, intelligent design should be discussed in theology, not science classes.
Christopher J. Papasian is chairman of the Department of Basic Medical Science at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine. He lives in Lenexa.

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 136 (189648)
03-02-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Monk
03-01-2005 11:47 PM


Well, they gave up on the idea of a trial.
Instead they are asking for experts to prepare written statements. They are asking for responses to eight questions:
Subcommittee wants questions addressed in papers
1. Discuss your understanding of the definition of science, particularly with reference to the majority and minority definitions.
2. Discuss your understanding of a hypothesis and theory, particularly with regard to evolution and how an individual hypothesis and theory is used and supported and what happens when competing hypotheses and theories are at odds.
3. Discuss the idea that the best scientific inquiry is performed in the fashion of empirical science, that is, observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable.
4. Discuss the scientific evidence concerning the idea that natural selection and/or mutations produce speciation.
5. Discuss the scientific evidence concerning the idea that there is a common biological ancestor.
6. Discuss the scientific evidence concerning the idea of what can falsify the Theory of Biological Evolution, particularly how radiometric dating and the fossil record interacts with the idea of falsification.
7. Discuss the idea that students (after moving from concrete thinking and being able to think in the abstract) should be able to explain, in scientific terms, the philosophy of science and various theories of science, as well as various scientific criticisms.
8. U.S. education, particularly with regard to mathematics and science, has been criticized for being a mile wide and an inch deep and thus not promoting critical thinking and/or problem-solving skills. With regard to science education, is this a valid concern? Discuss the idea of how teachers need to or need not address this situation.
IMHO the questions are great but the response to each question would take a complete book. If they do get some great responses though I believe the responses themself would make a great text and cover much if not most of the course material for a highschool science class.
Source

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 136 (189649)
03-02-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-02-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Well, they gave up on the idea of a trial.
IMHO the questions are great but the response to each question would take a complete book.
That and who comprises this board? Are they in any way qualified to determine what constitutes legitimate science?
What's next, a hearing to determine whether physics teachers need to include the 'alternate theory' of nuclear forces: The will of god holds quarks together?
Astronomy teachers need to include ID as an alternate to Big Bang theory in their curriculums?
Creepy.

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Taqless
Member (Idle past 5932 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 22 of 136 (189656)
03-02-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Demosthenes Fan
02-27-2005 1:56 PM


Ho Hum.
Out of all the scientific theories, why is this the only one (at least that gets this kind of press) that christians say we, as scientists, got wrong?
Shouldn't ID be in church, home, etc since it is a religious sentiment? Maybe it can go under other creation myth stories that one gets in a humanities and/or literature course?
Apparently even when kids get into college professors still need to be careful...it really is ridiculous to treat young adults in this fashion. Please see this.
Anyway, I'll stop rambling....I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in Kansas.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 23 of 136 (189659)
03-02-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by custard
03-02-2005 1:17 PM


What is the intention of the questions..
They may honestly be trying to inform themselves.
However the other thought I have is that they are simply trying to appear to be open minded. Then they may get too little in the way of response and say "See, I told you so." as if they aren't responsible for informing themselves. On the other hand they may get "too much" response which will just confuse the already confused further.
Even worse there may be some hanky-panky going on where the IDists (or others) will be allowed to answer in full and others may be restricted in some way.
How much time is allowed for preparting the submissions?

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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 136 (189661)
03-02-2005 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Thor
02-27-2005 10:13 PM


Not attempting to get too deep into this conversation, but with Churches you at least have an option of going. Don't like what their teaching? Don't go. School is one of those pesky things that the government feels necessary to make mandatory. I know that there is home schooling, but it's really not a viable option for many families. I'm not saying that creationism should be taught, just that there's a flaw in your statement.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 136 (189663)
03-02-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Angeldust
03-02-2005 2:11 PM


School is one of those pesky things that the government feels necessary to make mandatory.
If you don't go to school you shouldn't be able to vote.

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 136 (189665)
03-02-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NosyNed
03-02-2005 2:06 PM


Re: What is the intention of the questions..
ned writes:
How much time is allowed for preparting the submissions?
No where near enough given the scope of the questions. They plan to make a decision before June.
Abrams said the process was needed to gather more information before the board in June enacts science standards that will be used as the basis for statewide science testing in public schools.
ned writes:
They may honestly be trying to inform themselves.
I doubt it given this response from one of the three meber (all anti-evolution) that will evaluate the responses.
"Nothing's on trial, except maybe evolution," said Kathy Martin, one of the three board members -- all conservative -- who will hear the evidence.
The conservative, anti-evolution/pro-ID faction holds a 6-4 majority on the full committee and complete control of the sub-committee.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 136 (189681)
03-02-2005 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
03-02-2005 2:19 PM


How about the higher education level you have, the more votes you get? one for high school, two for bachelors, three for masters, etc....
Although seriously I know someone who thinks we should go back to the old Roman Republic system, which would be all sorts of interesting.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 136 (189682)
03-02-2005 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Angeldust
03-02-2005 4:02 PM


How about the higher education level you have, the more votes you get? one for high school, two for bachelors, three for masters, etc....
No need to go that far; it's sufficient that the right of voting be held only by those who have completed a course of study to prepare them for that responsibility; that's what the schools should be in the business of.

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 29 of 136 (189800)
03-03-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Angeldust
03-02-2005 2:11 PM


Angeldust writes:
School is one of those pesky things that the government feels necessary to make mandatory.
You're joking, right?

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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 136 (189819)
03-03-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by coffee_addict
03-03-2005 1:56 PM


Sarcasm does not type well. Yes, I'm kidding. 6 years after the government tells me I don't have to go anymore, I'm paying money to get more. I'm in the middle of my master's degree right now. Believe me I'm kidding. I thought more people would pick up on the sarcasm.

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