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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1079 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 196 of 381 (189225)
02-28-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by xevolutionist
02-28-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
xevolutionist writes:

I'm not looking for any reasons to believe, my faith is based on very convincing evidence.

I'm not sure what your faith entails but your comment reminds me that many religious people, Christian and otherwise, mistakenly attribute the natural magic of the universe to Gods. For example: they believe lightning to be his arrows and thunder to be his voice.

Many religious people mistake the innate qualities of human experience for the work of Gods, Prophets or Messiah's. Such outmoded belief systems are no longer able to explain the universe. Their explanations have evolved a lot but have a long way to go before reasonable men can accept God Theory.

As a long time atheist (reformed Christian) I can testify to the power of prayer, the reality of divine guidance, and the still small voice of conscience. These phenomena are common to humanity. One does not need a God in order to receive those gifts. When one creates a jealous God, then all who believe in other Gods become infidels. And if those other Gods are anything like the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God, then war becomes inevitable.

Answer me this: Why is it that Jesus is coming back to kill me and my friends and members of my family who aren't 'good'Christians? Do you think that makes me want to believe in him?

Thank you for your stimulating comments.

Thank you for calling them that.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 12:41 PM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 3:06 PM doctrbill has responded
 Message 232 by JRTjr, posted 07-30-2009 12:14 PM doctrbill has responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 197 of 381 (189226)
02-28-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by arachnophilia
02-28-2005 2:55 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
quote:
i'm gonna make the obvious statement. psalms contains poetry. songs, actually, because they were set to music. they are praises of god, usually, and never prophetic or historical.

What about psalms 2, 22, 72, 89, and 132? 22 especially for the obvious reason that it depicts scenes from the crucifiction. The fact that whoever wrote it wasn't aware that he was writing prophetically, seems compelling.

I won't be contributing to this thread for the immediate future, thank you for a very interesting discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by arachnophilia, posted 02-28-2005 2:55 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 198 of 381 (189236)
02-28-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 1:42 PM


Judgement
quote:
Answer me this: Why is it that Jesus is coming back to kill me and my friends and members of my family who aren't 'good'Christians? Do you think that makes me want to believe in him?

OK, one last post . I said before that I think most people have an incorrect view of Christianity. I know what you are referring to, but I don't think that He is "coming back to kill everyone who is not a good Christian." Most people who think they are "good Christians" are not. The only reason I can give to believe in Him is that He said He wants you to love Him as He already loves you.

I was talking to my son who had professed a belief in Christ a few years before the conversation took place. I was talking about gaining eternal life by receiving salvation. My son [then about 15 years old] corrected me, stating that all of us [humans] have eternal life, not just those who accept Christ as savior.

I think there will be a final judgement but people will be judged on the content of their heart. Yes, I believe that the NT is right that Jesus is the savior who gives salvation to all that will accept Him and repent, but I believe that is the only criteria. I also know that I may be deluded, and all I believe is wrong.

If the Bible is wrong, then I have lost nothing, as I will have the same fate as all men. If the Bible is right, then I will be in the presence of God for eternity.

When I had the sudden conviction that the message was the truth, I was amazed. I had a very good life and I was not looking for redemption. When I investigated and discovered the evidence that I've spoken of, I was surprised, to say the least, as I had been totally sceptical of all religion.

If it were suddenly proved to me that the Bible was a total fabrication it would change my life very little, as I believe the values taught in the Bible are a very good standard for life. It would greatly disappoint me, as I look forward to life eternal, but I wouldn't be suicidal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 1:42 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 11:12 PM xevolutionist has responded
 Message 209 by ramoss, posted 03-03-2005 9:47 AM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 293 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 199 of 381 (189336)
02-28-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 10:41 AM


Re: Gods and Sons of God
I believe it had more to do with politics than with religion. Jewish leaders were nervous about what Jesus said because: identifying oneself as son-of-god (royal) was a challenge to Caesar.

probably, yes.

Why not?

Solomon was the son of David, and the son of god.

yes, but god didn't inseminate solomon's mother. that's what i meant by literal son of god.

The anointed one (man selected to be king) becomes the son of god by virtue of his coronation, the crown symbolizing presence of deity; a halo, if you will. This is incarnation. The 'spirit of god' possessing the body of a man: the king.

By analogy: the anointed one is like the president elect. He is given all power in heaven and earth upon the occasion of his inauguration.

yes, such as in psalm 2.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 10:41 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 11:48 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 293 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 200 of 381 (189349)
02-28-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by xevolutionist
02-28-2005 1:08 PM


My belief is that He was fully God and fully human. At this time He voluntarily relenquished certain aspects of His Godliness to accomplish His task, to redeem those who would repent and acknowledge Him as King.

then he could not have been fully god, if he was not fully a god. but as even PART human, and a son of jacob, he's held to the mosaic covenant.

His resurrection, which was acknowledged by the other apostles, is just one proof of His deity.

so lazarus is a god? what about all those skeletons god puts back together in front of ezekiel? are they all gods too? god controls life and death. he can resurrect whomever he pleases.

The proofs that you cite are not. PROOF, the establishment of a fact by evidence.

no, by logic. no amount of evidence will ever prove anything, just make it really stupid to think anything else. logically, do die, jesus has to be mortal. to be mortal, he has to be a man. as a man, he's held to the law. if he breaks the law, it defeats the entire point of your theology.

That is one of the criteria that I didn't mention because I wasn't sure that it was apparent to non believers. It's called a self evidencing quality in that it just reads like the word of God.

except it's plainly obvious to anyone who knows how to read anything with any degree of comprehension that there is more than one author in the bible. in fact, it's alos pretty obvious that there is usually more than one author within each book. genesis has at least 3. isaiah has 3. psalms has 5 separate sources, each with different authors.

reads like the word of god? how do you know what god writes like?

try reading some apocryphal and pseudepigraphical texts, and tell me if you think they sound like god too. because most of them do. because what you're doing is mistaking cultural identity with deity.

Most people who handle large amounts of cash become so familiar with authentic currency that it is immediately evident when they handle a fake bill, unless it's printed on genuine currency paper stock.

i've operated a chas register for years. i had a counterfeit bill go through my hands once. i didn't even notice. because it felt real, and looked real. now, i check for watermarks. latent images put into the paper. and i look for the strip.

see, authenticity is really in the details. anyone can write a book that SOUNDS like what you think the bible is. but the trick is to look a little closer.

What about

psalm 2: the coronation psalm.

think about it. the lord said to me: "you are my son, i have fathered you THIS DAY." christians don't seem to be good with "this day" for some reason. but it means that whoever this is directed to was not god's son, and then BECAME god's son. that is what it says. it's talking about crowning a king, probably david.

psalm 22: we've talked about this one before.

it's interesting because it's the one jesus quotes when he's on the cross. (do you honestly think jesus hadn't read psalms?) look, they even cast lots over the clothes. wonder where the nt authors got that idea, hm? but look who's doing it: the evil ones of bashan. and after they've torn his body apart. read the text if you don't believe me.

psalm 72:

where does jesus conquer the enemies of the jews? where does he make them lick the dust? when did he rule from sea to shining sea? actually, if you read it at all, it's the last prayer of david, but at the top it says "of solomon." follow the parallelim, "endow the king with your judgements / the king's son with your righteousness." jesus didn't have a son, but david did. and his name was solomon.

psalm 89:

i don't even know what you're talking about. it's ethan the ezrahite talking about his relationship to david and god.

psalm 132:

is the "annointed one" business you're talking about? notice how it's always in parallel with david. it's possible it holds messianic significance, sure. (so does a lot of the ot) but it's hardly prophesy. it's talking about a king. any king. maybe even david. remember every king of judah was "annointed." that's what the word means.

22 especially for the obvious reason that it depicts scenes from the crucifiction

or rather, vice versa. like i said, pre-hoc propter-hoc fallacy. unique to religion, i think.

The fact that whoever wrote it wasn't aware that he was writing prophetically, seems compelling.

well it compells me to think he wasn't. and that whoever wrote the new testament doesn't know how to read hebrew very well. considering it does mention the specific parties at hand, and doesn't match the depiction of the crucifixion at all. it's about a pack of wild dogs tearing a man to pieces. have you even read psalm 22?

it's also easy to show that nt authors misinterpretted a lot of ot stuff.

and still, pre-hoc propter-hoc. if there's a corellation between two events, it's more likely that the second was influenced by the first than vice versa.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 1:08 PM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by xevolutionist, posted 03-01-2005 9:15 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-17-2005 2:38 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1079 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 201 of 381 (189368)
02-28-2005 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by xevolutionist
02-28-2005 3:06 PM


Re: Judgement
Thank you for your honest reply. I must tell you, however, that I found the following line rather disturbing.

xevolutionist writes:

I also know that I may be deluded, and all I believe is wrong.

I think we all harbor a certain amount of erroneous belief but I seriously doubt that everything you believe is wrong.

Those of us who love truth may have to revise our opinions from time to time as we grow in understanding. I've had to let go many prejudiced interpretations of scripture. I grew up in a denomination of Christianity which taught us that we (our sect) were the 'true' People of God. Thus indoctrinated I set forth arrogantly on my quest to know God. As you might imagine, I encountered many attitude adjustments along the way.

My advice: Don't assume that your current beliefs are either completely correct or entirely incorrect. Each of us has a special life experience, a unique point of view, and something valuable to contribute to this discussion.

Thank you for participating.

db


Theology is the science of Dominion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 3:06 PM xevolutionist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by xevolutionist, posted 03-01-2005 9:21 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1079 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 202 of 381 (189375)
02-28-2005 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by arachnophilia
02-28-2005 9:11 PM


Re: Gods and Sons of God
Solomon was the son of David, and the son of god.

Arachnophilia writes:

yes, but god didn't inseminate solomon's mother. that's what i meant by literal son of god.

I don't believe Yahweh inseminated Jesus' mother.

But perhaps some lesser god did so.

Perhaps it was that 'angel' (Greek for agent) who popped into Mary's bedroom in the middle of the night and said,

"Young lady, you're about to get pregnant."

And she did!

db


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by arachnophilia, posted 02-28-2005 9:11 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by arachnophilia, posted 03-01-2005 1:27 AM doctrbill has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 293 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 203 of 381 (189390)
03-01-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 11:48 PM


Re: Gods and Sons of God
I don't believe Yahweh inseminated Jesus' mother.

well, what i mean is that i don't think "son of god" has a darned thing to do with genetics. it's a title.

and obviously one that can applied well after birth, see psalm 2.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 11:48 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by doctrbill, posted 03-01-2005 9:44 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1079 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 204 of 381 (189431)
03-01-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by arachnophilia
03-01-2005 1:27 AM


Re: Gods and Sons of God
Arachnophilia writes:

what i mean is that i don't think "son of god" has a darned thing to do with genetics. it's a title. and obviously one that can applied well after birth, see psalm 2.

Clearly.


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by arachnophilia, posted 03-01-2005 1:27 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 205 of 381 (189558)
03-01-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by arachnophilia
02-28-2005 9:43 PM


recognizing authenticity
quote:
i've operated a chas register for years. i had a counterfeit bill go through my hands once. i didn't even notice. because it felt real, and looked real. now, i check for watermarks. latent images put into the paper. and i look for the strip.

The people in the sector I labor in handle hundreds of thousands of dollars a day, mostly 20's and hundreds, and believe me, if a fake shows up it's spotted. That may be your problem, not spending enough time with the real deal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by arachnophilia, posted 02-28-2005 9:43 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by arachnophilia, posted 03-02-2005 1:54 AM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 206 of 381 (189559)
03-01-2005 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 11:12 PM


Re: Judgement
I am confident that my belief system is grounded in reality, but not so arrogant that I am unwilling to hear other viewpoints and consider them. Right now I'm investigating preterism. Best wishes with your search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 11:12 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 293 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 207 of 381 (189578)
03-02-2005 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by xevolutionist
03-01-2005 9:15 PM


Re: recognizing authenticity
The people in the sector I labor in handle hundreds of thousands of dollars a day, mostly 20's and hundreds, and believe me, if a fake shows up it's spotted. That may be your problem, not spending enough time with the real deal.

this bill in question not only felt like a real bill, it passed the marker test. it's actually the reason we no longer use the markers: they don't work well enough.

in other words, i'd bet it was printed on exactly the same kind of paper real money is. however, the bank is obviously better at checking than we are, or i am, because they spotted it and we didn't.

what i mean to say is exactly what you're saying. it takes experience. and frankly, the average religious person doesn't even have enough experience (or common sense) to tell one book of the bible from another, let alone start talking about authenticity.

here's a question for you: is deuteronomy a complete forgery, from the reign of king josiah? www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=287&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=287&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=287&m=1

textual hints point to yes. this is not a new thought, either. it's been known for at least 2000 years that moses could not have written deuteronomy. it's setup is that it's the speech of moses delivered from across the jordan. so it had to be written by someone else on the other side of jordan from moses. but ask a fundamentalist, and it's the word of god written down by moses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by xevolutionist, posted 03-01-2005 9:15 PM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 208 of 381 (189755)
03-03-2005 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by xevolutionist
02-28-2005 1:49 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Those appear to be perfect examples of people taking passages, and writign TO them to make them look prophic, when they actually are not.

From my point of view, the people writing about Jesus search the old testament and looked for passages they could make into being something that 'foretold' the coming of the person they believed to be their savior.

I mean, a sign does no good if you don't know it's a sign until after the event.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 1:49 PM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 209 of 381 (189758)
03-03-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by xevolutionist
02-28-2005 3:06 PM


Re: Judgement
Except, of course, that is a rehash of the Pascal's wager.. and that is throughly discreditd.

What if you are worshpping the wrong god, and rejected the Koran for the bible?

What if you rejected the Vedas, and the worship of the holy trinity of Vishnu , Brahma and Shiva in return for the worship of a false god?

The problem with Pascal's wager is that it depends on the logical fallacy of the false dicomtomy that assumes that either Roman Catholism (as pascal originally wrote it) was right, or atheism was right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by xevolutionist, posted 02-28-2005 3:06 PM xevolutionist has not yet responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2621 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 210 of 381 (190005)
03-04-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Thugpreacha
01-10-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Literal part timers
You mean the 'knowledge' that since they were all saved thousands and thousands of the children will be damned forever and suffer eternal torment in hell? You really sure you want to play this game?

edited to fix a typo.

This message has been edited by Trae, 03-04-2005 08:22 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-10-2005 12:56 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2005 9:20 AM Trae has responded

  
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