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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4437 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 46 of 303 (167350)
12-12-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Xenocrates
12-11-2004 2:26 PM


Re: Existence of Demons(and Angels)
quote:
Firstly, the reason I was including scripture is that I often like to end my post in a verse, not necessarily to prove my point, but just because I like to incorporate scripture into everything I do (In other words, it is not an integral part of my argument, its just something I stuck on there cause I liked it). Secondly, I'll quote as much scripture as I like- I'm not asking you to read it, but if I want to quote it, who are you to tell me not to?
And no, I don't have to prove anything to you. God knows it already and that's all that's important to me.
I'm sorry for seeming so abrupt. People have tried to convert me before by quoting scripture at me, and it left a permanent bad taste in my mouth.
Generally, people quote in order to support something they have stated. Otherwise it is off-topic and shouldn't be included in the thread. I don't know or care enough about the bible to argue coherently, so in either case scripture is a dead end for me.
As long as I know you post it because you like to (not because you're evangelising or witnessing or something) I won't mind. I can skip over the preachy bits.
The Rockhound

This message is a reply to:
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Seraphim
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 303 (189582)
03-02-2005 2:34 AM


Seeing is believing, right?
I have never been told what to, and what not to believe. The simple fact is i believe in demons because i have seen them, on more than one occasion. I've been able to since i was little. This was the very reason that i was insomniatic as a child. My friend calls it a gift, but there have been times when i have doubted that. However, i do believe i was given this "Gift" for a reason. Perhaps, to enlighten the doubtful, i really don't know, but, If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
andrewrbrett@hotmail.com

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 303 (189584)
03-02-2005 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Seraphim
03-02-2005 2:34 AM


Re: Seeing is believing, right?
seraphim writes:
I believe in demons because I have seen them, on more than one occasion.
What did they look like? Did they talk to you? Did anyone else see them? How did you feel while you were experiencing them?

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 49 of 303 (189596)
03-02-2005 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Seraphim
03-02-2005 2:34 AM


Re: Seeing is believing, right?
Have you been tested for mental illness?
Do you have a drug habit?*
(let's eliminate the usual suspect before we explore more exotic options).
* and before people get all shouty - those are only the questions the church would ask.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Seraphim, posted 03-02-2005 2:34 AM Seraphim has not replied

Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 303 (189679)
03-02-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Xenocrates
12-06-2004 12:38 AM


These conversations only seem to go one way.......
Can you prove the existance of angels/demons?
NO, but I can give stories
Could these encounters be caused by anything else?
Yes, I suppose they could
Then we can conclude that in the absence of any real evidence to the contrary, these were caused by drugs, or mental disorders.
Fortunately, and unfortunately, they have a point about stories not being evidence (if all stories were considered evidence for things, the world would make a whole lot less sense)and also about some things likely being caused by drugs/mental disorders.
However, I will agree with you on the existance of demons/angels. There really does come a point in one's Christian life where it would be dishonest to oneself to deny what you have seen/experienced.
Have I seen personally? Yes. Do I have friends that have seen personally? Yes. Will someone follow this post and ask if I've done drugs? Probably. the answer? No.
I have stories. I have what I believe because of experience. Will I convince anyone else? No, probably not. It's not really my goal here to seek to change someone mind, I'm just looking for opinions and good information.
Some people's paradigm allows them to believe. Some people's doesn't. I'm always up for a good story though, if you've acquired the first hand accounts you were looking for.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 57 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 1:16 PM Angeldust has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 303 (189684)
03-02-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Angeldust
03-02-2005 3:49 PM


What I can't figure out is, if all these demons and angels exist, then why can't all the people who see them agree on who they are, what they're doing, what their goals are, what their powers are, etc.
And why is it that nobody who has training in a rigourous field of knowledge acquisition ever sees them? Why aren't psychologists seeing them? Biologists? Physicists?
Why aren't there any peer-reviewed journals on demonology? Schools of angel studies? Why is it that, as a field, angel/demonology gives equal creedence to literally everybody's half-baked ideas about these things?
I'm not dismissing the idea of demons and angels right offhand. I don't know of any physical principle that would completely prevent their existence. And even if I did, and they turned out to exist anyway, it would mean that my understanding of physical principle wa wrong.
But the whole thing - the community of people that claim to have seen them, the body of knowledge surrounding them - doesn't look like the kind of body of knowledge that develops from studying something that actually exists; it looks like the body of knowledge that develops when a community of people each make up a story, and then try to cram all those stories into one continuity.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 52 of 303 (189720)
03-02-2005 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
03-02-2005 4:48 PM


kinda like that movie "The Village" . Shit I even thought those damn monsters were real.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 303 (189739)
03-03-2005 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
03-02-2005 4:48 PM


Could it beeeeee Satan?
crashfrog writes:
What I can't figure out is, if all these demons and angels exist, then why can't all the people who see them agree on who they are, what they're doing, what their goals are, what their powers are, etc.
Think about it. IF these things existed and IF they had powers beyond human, why would they cooperate with us at all? We can as Christians usually agree on what they are and what their purpose is.
And why is it that nobody who has training in a rigourous field of knowledge acquisition ever sees them? Why aren't psychologists seeing them? Biologists? Physicists?
Who says that some prominant people have not seen them? After all, if I were a professional and saw such an event, I would keep quiet about it lest my peers thought me a nut case!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 03-02-2005 4:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 303 (189769)
03-03-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
03-03-2005 6:42 AM


Think about it. IF these things existed and IF they had powers beyond human, why would they cooperate with us at all?
Why would "cooperation" be necessary? We study animals pretty well and they aren't in the least bit interested in cooperating.
Who says that some prominant people have not seen them? After all, if I were a professional and saw such an event, I would keep quiet about it lest my peers thought me a nut case!
C'mon. There has to be someone. After all plenty of other people come right out and say they've seen demons, and they get to write bestselling books. I think there's considerably greater acceptance of this than you predict with this ad-hoc theory of peer pressure.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 303 (189773)
03-03-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
03-03-2005 10:56 AM


crashfrog writes:
Why would "cooperation" be necessary? We study animals pretty well and they aren't in the least bit interested in cooperating.
C'mon! IF these entities were truly supernatural and IF the Bible had it right about the fact of a spiritual war being a reality THEN these "things" not only would be uncooperative but they would be actively hostile! I realize that we can only discuss these possibilities on a theoretical level but, unlike pink elephants, there is some historical credence for consideration of these supernatural claims.
As for the peer pressure theory? Lets assume that for every story like mine that is undeniably true to the individual, 3 more are made up elaborations to "fit in" with the group. This still leaves plenty of stories that are not made up. At best, they are cases of mistaken assumption UNLESS we actually experienced the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 56 of 303 (189774)
03-03-2005 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
03-03-2005 11:37 AM


All the important bits:
quote:
IF,IF,THEN,possibilities,claims,assume,made up,elaborations, stories, assumption.
quote:
there is some historical credence for consideration of these supernatural claims.
Why? What is your evidence for this claim?
This is thin stuff.
As far as I can see being is the best defense against those "demons" is being an atheist, they just seem not to trouble us (yes I've left an opening for a hokey "but they are there, it's just you are godless" hokey bullshit defense).
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 03 March 2005 11:49 AM

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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 57 of 303 (189790)
03-03-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Angeldust
03-02-2005 3:49 PM


Anecdotes away!
Angeldust writes:
Some people's paradigm allows them to believe. Some people's doesn't. I'm always up for a good story though, if you've acquired the first hand accounts you were looking for.
Ok...so you have to believe in order to encounter these supernatural beings?
You are up for a good story, yet, strangely, you have not told of your first hand experience. I would not mind at all reading it. However, there may be those who try to discount it by providing possible explanations for your encounter. Since I asked for your story, I will not criticise or explain it away.

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 303 (189794)
03-03-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by LinearAq
03-03-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Anecdotes away!
Not that you necessarily have to believe to encounter them, but two things come into play.
1. People who don't first believe will be more likely to try and explain it away. You can explain anything away if you don't want to believe in it. Granted, the opposite is also true.
2. If these beings have the purposeful existance as presented in scripture, demons wouldn't appear because than you'd have reason to believe in them and it works more in their favour if you don't.
Class is about to start so I don't have time to tell stories, but I will try to get back later to do it.

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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 59 of 303 (189795)
03-03-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
03-03-2005 11:37 AM


Christ the ruler
P-boy writes:
C'mon! IF these entities were truly supernatural and IF the Bible had it right about the fact of a spiritual war being a reality THEN these "things" not only would be uncooperative but they would be actively hostile!
Doesn't the power of Christ within you allow you to control these demons? Why can't Christians just force them to be visible? Perhaps, if not visible, then make them affect the physical world in some particular way.
This is what baffles me. Demons are the cause of sickness. Christ performed healings (demon removal service) and other miracles so that unbelievers would know who He was. Christ even said that his followers would perform miracles greater then He did. Prophecy, tongues with interpretation, and healings are for unbelievers to see and convert. The early church (see "Acts of the Apostles") performed miracles right and left, causing thousands to convert. Miracles seem to work to bring the lost to Christ. However, there seems to be a lack of miracles going on in the Church today (let's say NONE), when we need salvation most.
I've read the Book....where are these signs and wonders? Without miracles how do we know that Christianity is the "real" path to heaven?

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 60 of 303 (189843)
03-03-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
03-03-2005 11:37 AM


IF these entities were truly supernatural and IF the Bible had it right about the fact of a spiritual war being a reality THEN these "things" not only would be uncooperative but they would be actively hostile!
Which is a point that, like I said, you angel people can't agree on. Some of you think that they're soldiers in a supernatural war for the souls of humanity. Some of you think that demons don't exist at all, and that angels are merely here as our benificent observers and protectors.
I realize that we can only discuss these possibilities on a theoretical level but, unlike pink elephants, there is some historical credence for consideration of these supernatural claims.
There's actually none whatsoever, which was my point. There's only people's stories, and the stories contradict each other in precisely the way we would expect if all the stories were made up.
Lets assume that for every story like mine that is undeniably true to the individual, 3 more are made up elaborations to "fit in" with the group. This still leaves plenty of stories that are not made up.
In fact, it leaves no stories that are not made up, because "true to the individual" does not mean "it really happened." And how are we supposed to know who the liars are? Everybody with an angel story is saying that it really happened; in other words, they're just like you.
We're in a situation where we can't tell the lies from the truth, if there even is any. The reasonable response to that situation is the conclusion that there's no truth in any of it.

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