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Author Topic:   soul of fundamentalism
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 135 (189869)
03-03-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Trump won
03-03-2005 4:43 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
So Christ was a fundamentalist.
I don't think so. In fact, I would say that he was about as far from being a Fundamentalist as it was possible to get. He broke many, many of the existing rules and violated many of the basic precepts of his religion.
Did he not show that it was okay to work on the sabbath?
That was a biggie.
Did he not accept people that were considered unclean into his inner circle, didn't he welcome many that would have been excluded?
Look at his attitude towards religion. Did he ever stop being a Jew? Did he reduce all of the myriad laws down to just two?
No, I don't think I'd describe him as a Fundamentalist, but rather a Revolutionary Socialist.
Why do so many christians look down upon this faith?
My problem with Fundamentalism as it's commonly practiced is that it is exclusionary.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Trump won, posted 03-03-2005 4:43 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 135 (189927)
03-03-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Trump won
03-03-2005 9:44 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
He held a literal interpretation of the Torah.
Did he? If he held a literal interpretation of the Torah or Tanakh, why did he break so many of the rules as laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
There are many, many indications that he did not accept the Tanakh literally and made major changes in how it was applied. Look at the tale of his reasoning with the Literalist of his day as related in Matthew 12 (and also in Mark 3, and two versions in Luke 6 & 14). These are the responses of a literalist at all.
Here is Matthew 12:1-13
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Does that sound like a literalist?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Trump won, posted 03-03-2005 9:44 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 135 (189941)
03-03-2005 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Trump won
03-03-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
But the point is that Samuel, Ruth and Kings (the main places David is recorded) are not part of the Torah, not part of the Laws. They are part of the NEVI'IM and KETHUVIM (Prophets & Writings). He was telling the Pharisees that you can't take the Torah literaly, you need to go beyond the Laws, to step outside the exclusionary world of literal interpretation and live up to the spirit of the issue.
Notice when he talks to the folk he deals with concrete, real world examples. He talks about eating, he talks about the priests doing their work on the sabbath, about pulling a sheep out of a ditch. This was he constant teaching method. He did not simply recite chapter and verse, but instead brought things into the world of day to day living.
He was NOT a literalist. He was constantly showing the people, mostly the literalists of the day, how they were not DOING right. He didn't interpret the word, he demonstrated how to live. He said "You can't take the word literally." He said, "Come on now. If the sheep falls in the ditch you don't wait a day to pull it out. Forget what's in the Laws, in the Torah, do what's right."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Trump won, posted 03-03-2005 10:43 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 10:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 135 (190162)
03-05-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Trump won
03-05-2005 10:31 AM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
He believed the stories of David and of Lot, of Noah.
What makes you think he believed those stories?
He was showing the literalists of the day how they were corrupt and dishonest, not following God. How they were misinterpreting the scripture they had from righteous men that had a grasp of a God, not that they shouldn't follow the scripture or believe in what was said in the scripture.
This is an important point, but let's resolve the first question and then come back to it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 10:31 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 11:08 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 135 (190176)
03-05-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Trump won
03-05-2005 11:08 AM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
He spoke of them plainly. What makes you think he didn't?
He spoke plainly of the house built on sand. Do you think he really was speaking of two real houses and their construction?
He spoke plainly of the sower.
"A sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell along the path, and was trodden under foot, and the birds of the air devoured it.
Do you think he was describing an actual event?
Jesus constantly used examples, tales and parables in his teaching. The only reason that the tales of Noah, Lot, or David are viewed differently than any of the other tales or parables is that he was using reference to a story familar to the listeners.
Is there anything that would make someone think he viewed the tales of Noah any differently then any of the other examples and techniques he used regularly?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 11:08 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:26 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 135 (190186)
03-05-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Trump won
03-05-2005 12:26 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
How are those any different than any other such examples? How are those different than the sower tale? How is that different than saying "Remember what happened in Hamelin?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:26 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 135 (190191)
03-05-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Trump won
03-05-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
How is that different from saying "Remember what happened in Hamelin?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:39 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 135 (190194)
03-05-2005 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Trump won
03-05-2005 12:45 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
He didn't say that. But I might.
Go back and read Luke 17 again. What you find is that Jesus, throughout that chapter, is teaching, using examples. He mixes in tales about how servants are treated and references, just like refering to Hamelin, that help explain his point. It's not saying that ANY of the things mentioned actually happened, they are but plot devices to try to get the listeners to understand his point. He's teaching folk how to behave, how to get along together, how to be a Christian. As in almost every instance whe have of his speech, he is talking about behavior, not belief or profession.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:45 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 135 (190198)
03-05-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Trump won
03-05-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
Okay name a parable where he referred to it as an actual event. Your little made up example is dishonest in the fact that you had to make up a fictional place that Jesus never did, You're not Jesus. I feeling you're being dishonest in your interpretation.
LOL
You do know about Hamelin don't you?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 12:54 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 1:02 PM jar has replied
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 Message 45 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 1:11 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 135 (190204)
03-05-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Trump won
03-05-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
Okay.
Thought that might be where I was failing in my communication.
Hamelin was the town that hired the piper to get rid of all the rats. After he got rid of them they refused to pay him his wages, so he piped off all the children and they were never seen again.
It's a horrible, frighting story, one of failure, justice and wrathful punishment, just like the tales of Lot and Noah. It's the source for "Paying the piper!"
Luke 17 is very similar. Jesus is instructing folk using examples. It doesn't matter whether the examples are real or fictional, it is the message that is important. He is telling the same tale as in the Pied Piper of Hamelin and is not intending that the story of Lot or of Noah are anything more than additional examples.
He's saying, "Remember what happened in Hamelin?"
This message has been edited by jar, 03-05-2005 12:13 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 1:02 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 03-05-2005 1:16 PM jar has replied
 Message 54 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 2:09 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 135 (190206)
03-05-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
03-05-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
So are you suggesting that Jesus Himself did not believe in a literal Noah and/or a literal Flood and a literal destruction of Sodom? (Hold up...I'm reading...)
Actually, yes. I don't believe that Jesus believed any of those were real stories.
I don't think Jesus assigned any significance more than story or fable to the Garden of Eden, Adam & {St}Eve, Sodom, the Flood, Exodus or most such tales. If Jesus is GOD, surely he would know there was not a world-wide flood and it's not possible to gather all the animals, how the universe was really formed and that they were but folk tales.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 03-05-2005 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 135 (190209)
03-05-2005 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-05-2005 1:37 PM


Re: Literal truth and/or Parables
I think we are wandering too far afield with that. Maybe in another thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-05-2005 1:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 135 (190221)
03-05-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Trump won
03-05-2005 2:09 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
If you owed me money and you said "remember in the days of the piper when he took all the children away, well I will pay you back eventually because I don't want something terrible like that to happen to me." I wouldn't believe you would pay me back because that never happened.
If I said "I'll pay you back because honesty is the best policy.", would you believe me? Or are you simply going to doubt anything I say?
So when Jesus said: "on the day when Lot left Sodom fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be when the sun of man is revealed"
Why should we believe him?
What is it he wants us to believe?
And if what you say is true why would Jesus exploit the people by using a story that everyone thought was true and putting fear in them that it will happen again when it never really happened?
What was it that Jesus wanted people to think? Why do you think people considered any of those stories true?
Is Jesus dishonest?
Jesus is a teacher using parable, analogy and examples. It's no more dishonest using the myth of the flood or the GOE than using the story of the Good Samaritan.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 2:09 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 7:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 135 (190249)
03-05-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Trump won
03-05-2005 7:41 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
Sorry Chris, I've read and re-read your last post about a half dozen times and I still can't figure out what you're trying to say.
Try breaking it down into simple questions or complete sentences and I'll give it another try.
Thanks.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 7:41 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 60 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 8:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 135 (190255)
03-05-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Trump won
03-05-2005 8:00 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
No,not really.
Let me try a few questions and see if we can get together.
Why do you seem to think I don't have faith?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 8:00 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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