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Author Topic:   Atheist Frendly Q&A
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 46 of 110 (191094)
03-11-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PecosGeorge
03-11-2005 2:05 PM


Re: An honest question
Call it circular all you want. It isn't. You made a mistake and won't admit it. Also, I couldn't care less what your book of myth says. Hide behind it if you will.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 47 of 110 (191097)
03-11-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PecosGeorge
03-11-2005 2:05 PM


Re: An honest question
PecosGeorge
And yet god deals with Satan in bringing ill upon Job to test Job's resolve. Why would god have no problem with what is essentially a temptation by a mortal enemy? There is no sense of worry in the game they play with Job.God even does the bidding of Satan as to how to test that resolve.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 110 (191099)
03-11-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by mikehager
03-11-2005 3:05 PM


Stepping into Admin mode for a moment.
Just as in the Creationist Friendly thread, the goal is for discussion to show points of view. Please, try to stick to that and not let this thread degenerate into attacks on individuals.
Question a position, but try to maintain civility.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 49 of 110 (191101)
03-11-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PecosGeorge
03-11-2005 2:05 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
I find circular discussion distasteful and there is an admonition against it in Romans 1:29. And this discussion has become circular.
I think you are confusing "circular arguments" with "arguments you are losing".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-11-2005 2:05 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 50 of 110 (191118)
03-11-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
03-11-2005 4:12 PM


Re: An honest question
As much as I would love to jump in and put my fist down... you know what I mean, this thread is a Q&A thread. It says so right in the title. What's a Q&A? Simply put, it is an ask-your-question and answer-your-question thread. Not a place to go into a deep debate.

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Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 51 of 110 (191123)
03-11-2005 10:27 PM


Serious question
For faithful, literal bible/creation believers.
So assume the situation where God creates the world is true. His great creation becomes rather tainted due to that whole nasty business with Adam & Eve and the forbidden fruit. If God is the all-powerful creator, it would make sense to scrap these flawed humans and create new ones that won't be so likely to stray from his way. It was only a days work wasn't it? Whats a days work to the Almighty? So, why let an obviously flawed creation continue to grow and run wild on the precious world He created when he has the power to do something about it? Why not nip it in the bud?
He tried to correct things with the flood I guess, but ultimately that didn't seem to do a lot of good. I'd call that a situation of closing the gate after the horse has already bolted.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 52 of 110 (191138)
03-12-2005 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PecosGeorge
03-11-2005 7:55 AM


Re: An honest question
I don't engage in circular discussion and believe that is what Paul meant by debate in Romans 1:29, and is to be avoided.
what is circular about my argument? i said the covenant is in the form of a common treaty used in the middle east at the time of it's writing, and that this treaty depends on the first set of conditions.
therefore, the treaty could not exist prior to the conditions occuring.
also, if you're against debate, this is the wrong site for you.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 53 of 110 (191158)
03-12-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by coffee_addict
03-11-2005 8:52 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
As much as I would love to jump in and put my fist down... you know what I mean, this thread is a Q&A thread. It says so right in the title. What's a Q&A? Simply put, it is an ask-your-question and answer-your-question thread. Not a place to go into a deep debate.
Yes, it certainly is not a place to go into a deep debate, but what I believe PG is doing is avoiding the follow up questions that people are asking him.
Any time he gets backed into a corner, he claims that the argument has become "circular", which it really hasn't.
I think this is a typical symptom of the kinds of discussions that are likely to happen in a thread like this:
unbeliever 1: "If God says X in the Bible, why is it like Y here on Earth?
Pecos George: Well, read this passage, and interpret it this way, and see, it all makes sense.
highly-informed unbeliever 2: Well, no, you see if we consider how such things were done in a historical context, that doesn't make sense, and here's why...(in-depth explanation follows)
Pecos George: (nervously backing out of the room) This discussion is becoming circlular and the Bible says I shouldn't engage in circulr arguments, so I'm going to quit.
Generally, unbelievers ask too many questions.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-12-2005 08:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 110 (191160)
03-12-2005 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by nator
03-12-2005 8:31 AM


Schraf brings up an important point!
Generally, unbelievers ask too many questions.
I disagree.
IMHO many believers ask too few questions.
I hope that this thread will be productive for just that reason. A belief that is not challenged, not considered and not tempered will be shallow and weak. It is very good when questions are asked.
If we look at the teachings of Jesus we find him asking a constant stream of questions. His whole mission seems to be one of challenging belief.
One of the remarkable things about Jesus is how quickly he blossomed from total obscurity to one of the major teachers of all ages. If we compare some of the great teachers, for example Jesus, Confucius and Buddha, perhaps this will become clear.
Jesus active recorded ministry (there may well have been more but it's possibly unrecorded or at a minimum, apocryphal) lasted only three years. On the other hand, Confucius became a renown teacher at about the same age as Jesus and taught for a period of over 35 years. Likewise Buddha began his teaching having reached enlightenment at about 35 and continued teaching for more than 45 years.
One commonality about all three is that they taught by asking questions or telling parables designed to get the listener to challenge strongly held beliefs.
This thread has two purposes. First is to help non-believers understand the point-of-view of believers. The second is to provide a challenge to believers that hopefully will get them to examine their beliefs. That does not mean that either believer or non-believer will change their beliefs, but rather that each will temper their belief.
Yes, it certainly is not a place to go into a deep debate, but what I believe PG is doing is avoiding the follow up questions that people are asking him.
I don't have a problem with his position. As laid out in the topic title, this is Q&A.
It's also not instant gratification.
When some belief is challenged the first and most common reaction is to erect a barrier and retreat. But questions have a strange effect. Once asked they do not go away. Hopefully, PG will consider the question and think about it. A response may not be immediate, we are touching on some fundamental issues here.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 55 of 110 (191162)
03-12-2005 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by sidelined
03-11-2005 3:39 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
And yet god deals with Satan in bringing ill upon Job to test Job's resolve. Why would god have no problem with what is essentially a temptation by a mortal enemy? There is no sense of worry in the game they play with Job.God even does the bidding of Satan as to how to test that resolve.
I recommend reading the Book of Job, again...if you have already. It deals with a prosperous, god-fearing man, who had everything. It is his relationship with God that draws the attention of satan who then accuses Job and God of collusion of sorts, and proposed that the only reason Job was such a devoted believer was because nothing bad ever happened to him, and that is why Job loved God.
The story unfolds and ends in exposing satan as a liar once again, who is the father of lies.
The proposition was.......you take everything away from your guy, and we'll see how much he loves you.
The demonstration was.......Job loved God regardless of possessions, he gave everything he had and was prepared to give his life.
God knew Job's heart, and satan slunk away at the end...defeated yet again.
As Christians, we participate in such trials, some to a greater degree than even Job. The disobedient need tests of obedience if they profess obedience, lip service is easy enough. The struggle is between Christ and satan and Christians are the prize.
I hope I have helped you.

This message is a reply to:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 56 of 110 (191163)
03-12-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
03-11-2005 4:12 PM


Re: An honest question
quote:
quote:I find circular discussion distasteful and there is an admonition against it in Romans 1:29. And this discussion has become circular.
I think you are confusing "circular arguments" with "arguments you are losing".
I find circular discussiondistasteful. I joined this discussion thinking it to be a means to answer honest questions, but fully aware there would be snakes in the grass.
Amazing how easily and quickly they flush, don't you think?
This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 03-12-2005 09:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 03-11-2005 4:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 57 of 110 (191165)
03-12-2005 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
03-12-2005 9:05 AM


Re: Schraf brings up an important point!
quote:
Yes, it certainly is not a place to go into a deep debate, but what I believe PG is doing is avoiding the follow up questions that people are asking him.
I don't have a problem with his position. As laid out in the topic title, this is Q&A.
It's also not instant gratification.
When some belief is challenged the first and most common reaction is to erect a barrier and retreat. But questions have a strange effect. Once asked they do not go away. Hopefully, PG will consider the question and think about it. A response may not be immediate, we are touching on some fundamental issues here.
A discussion becomes circular when the question asked has been answered, often several times. I call it the 'yeah-but' game, regardless of what is being said in response, 'yeah-but' rears his ugly butt, and the answers are refused one after the other. Or, bait and switch is another method, manipulating the conversation and backing the manipulatee into a corner, gleefully enjoying success, when success is claimed. It is a form of dishonesty I loathe. Badgering the witness, in this case the witness for the Christ. I will not participate. I expect someone to say 'I don't believe what you said, or in your case 'I understand what you said, but don't agree', and let it be. But that does not feed the ego, the delight felt when beating someone to death with words.
So far I have seen this from just three people, I say 'just' with a glad heart, the 'gangupmanship' can reach major proportions.
I'll give you the best answer I have for the best question you have, don't dishonor that agreement.
Thanks, Jar, see ya later.........remember, Aslan is the only lion, 'old man' (LOL) and Arie gur Yehuda means 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah', perhaps you know already.

Pascal's Wager......nice try.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 58 of 110 (191167)
03-12-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PecosGeorge
03-12-2005 9:37 AM


looking really bad here pecos
I find circular discussiondistasteful. I joined this discussion thinking it to be a means to answer honest questions, but fully aware there would be snakes in the grass.
uh, i addressed an error in one your posts, thoroughly refuting the idea based on a good understanding of the text and regional context, and you claimed i was making a circular argument, and declined to address it. furthermore, i'm pretty sure it was a point no one had discussed previously in the tread, except for mr jack who argued that morality and the law were independent. all i did was support the notion, textually, that the "ten commandments" had to have been given at a particular time under particular circumstances. (i would even argue it as being the entire point of the exodus, actually)
and i would hardly call myself a snake in the grass. you may forget, but i am a believer too. in some respects, at least. all i did was correct a standard mistake of theology.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 03-12-2005 10:16 AM

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 59 of 110 (191180)
03-12-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by PecosGeorge
03-12-2005 9:28 AM


Re: An honest question
PecosGeorge
The proposition was.......you take everything away from your guy, and we'll see how much he loves you.
The demonstration was.......Job loved God regardless of possessions, he gave everything he had and was prepared to give his life.
Quite so old chap,however the point I was making was that god made no motion to self defense and seemed not the least bothered by satans presence.God obviously had no problem playing the game instead of telling satan to sit on a cold pole.
Why wouild god who knows peoples hearts need to test the man Job to prove something to the devil?

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 110 (191197)
03-12-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PecosGeorge
03-12-2005 9:37 AM


Re: An honest question
quote:
I find circular discussion distasteful.
Me too.
The only problem is, what you call "circular", several of the rest of us call "refusing to admit that you were wrong or that someone else has a better argument than you."
As far as I have been able to tell, the questions have been, indeed, honest.
Your replies lead to more probing questions, but you get irritated at such probing, apparently preferring that we just accept your first answer and stop the continued questioning.
Like I said, unbelievers generally ask too many questions and think too much to be content with pat answers from believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PecosGeorge, posted 03-12-2005 9:37 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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