Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8946 total)
33 online now:
PaulK, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (2 members, 31 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Post Volume: Total: 865,927 Year: 20,963/19,786 Month: 1,360/2,023 Week: 311/557 Day: 4/47 Hour: 3/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 31 of 156 (191667)
03-15-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Monk
03-15-2005 10:31 AM


Re: John 3:15
I would say yes 5-14 appears to be Jesus' dialog, so does 15.

Okay, so in at least 5-14 we find Jesus speaking in the first person.

In John 3:5 he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ..." and in John 3:12 he is still speaking in the first person, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

So first person seems like a reasonable assumption.

Now if you are speaking in first person and say "Do you believe in him?" are you referring to yourself or to someone else?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 10:31 AM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 11:16 AM jar has responded
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 4:23 PM jar has responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 32 of 156 (191678)
03-15-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
03-15-2005 10:49 AM


Re: John 3:15
I would be referring to someone else

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 10:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 11:55 AM Monk has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 33 of 156 (191685)
03-15-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Monk
03-15-2005 11:16 AM


Re: John 3:15
Okay. I believe that would be a reasonable interpretation.

So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...?

If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 11:16 AM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 12:04 PM jar has responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 34 of 156 (191689)
03-15-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
03-15-2005 11:55 AM


Re: John 3:15
jar writes:

If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction?

Ok, I thought that's where you where going. Now let me respond by asking you a question.

When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" is he referring to himself or someone else?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 11:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 12:34 PM Monk has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 35 of 156 (191692)
03-15-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Monk
03-15-2005 12:04 PM


Re: John 3:15
When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" is he referring to himself or someone else?

Great question and one that will help, I believe, in looking at John 3.

The Term "Son of man" is pretty common in the Bible showing up in Numbers and Job, Psalms and Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekial as well as other places. In each instance it refers not to a divine person but to Joe ordinary. It's only in Daniel that any other interpretation of the term is given. There, at Belshazzar's feast when Daniel is doing some legerdemain for the King the term is given a meaning beyond the ordinary.

In the earlier portions of John 3 Jesus uses references to the OT several times. He's also talking about individual salvation, so within that context is seems that when Jesus uses Son of man he's using it in the most prosaic sense. He's saying you can't get lifted up on your own. Somebody else has to do the lifting. And that's GOD.

As we move further through John 3 I think there are several other indications that that is the correct interpretation.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 12:04 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 12:43 PM jar has responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 36 of 156 (191695)
03-15-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
03-15-2005 12:34 PM


Re: John 3:15
jar writes:

He's also talking about individual salvation, so within that context is seems that when Jesus uses Son of man he's using it in the most prosaic sense. He's saying you can't get lifted up on your own. Somebody else has to do the lifting. And that's GOD.

So then it is your opinion that Jesus is not referring to himself but to God as the Son of Man?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 12:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 12:46 PM Monk has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 37 of 156 (191696)
03-15-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Monk
03-15-2005 12:43 PM


Re: John 3:15
Nope. At that point I think, if we assume a continuation of the conversation, that Jesus is using Son of man to mean just plain folk.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 12:43 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 1:21 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 38 of 156 (191699)
03-15-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
03-15-2005 12:46 PM


Re: John 3:15
jar writes:

So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...?

And also

jar writes:

Nope. At that point I think, if we assume a continuation of the conversation, that Jesus is using Son of man to mean just plain folk.

Ok, but let's close our previous thought regarding John 3:15 before we get into the meaning of the Son of Man. I don't believe Jesus is speaking in the first person in 14. I believe the switch occured after 12. It seems to me that 15 is a continuation of the thoughts expressed in 13 and 14. Here are all three:

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In 13 note the phrase “...but he that came down...” referring to the Son of Man. Then in 14, the continuation of the Son of Man reference, stating that the Son of Man must be lifted up as was the serpent by Moses. Followed by “...believeth in him” in 15, again referring to the Son of Man. I believe the use of “him” in 15 is consistent with 13 and 14 and in particular with the use of "he" in 13.

Edited for grammer

This message has been edited by MyMonkey, 03-15-2005 01:49 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 12:46 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-15-2005 1:36 PM Monk has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 156 (191703)
03-15-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Monk
03-15-2005 1:21 PM


Re: John 3:15
It would seem to me that if the Son of Man was in Heaven then that would not refer to any of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 1:21 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Monk, posted 03-15-2005 2:31 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 40 of 156 (191709)
03-15-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
03-15-2005 8:25 AM


Tradition
quote:
Nobody can be a member of the family until and unless all imperfection is out of them. We are all not related to God in a familial sense because we have tainted blood. Only a virgin birth and sinless blood could qualify.
Where do you find this stuff anyway?
quote:
They were unwilling to lay their tradition and intellect at the foot of the man who was the path for them. He seemed so common.
From what I have read, the Nazarenes did not give up their Jewish traditions or intellects when they followed the teachings of Jesus.

If you read Jewish history you will find that many Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah went back to Judaism when Christianity started presenting Jesus as a deity and by that time there was no man to have anything laid at his feet.

They were unwilling to break the commandment stating that God is one.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-15-2005 8:25 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 41 of 156 (191717)
03-15-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Thugpreacha
03-15-2005 1:36 PM


Re: John 3:15
Phatboy writes:

It would seem to me that if the Son of Man was in Heaven then that would not refer to any of us.

I agree


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-15-2005 1:36 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 42 of 156 (191743)
03-15-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
03-15-2005 10:49 AM


Re: John 3:15
quote:
In John 3:5 he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ..." and in John 3:12 he is still speaking in the first person, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I feel that line 12 is actually the end of Jesus talking.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, but verse 13 and the rest of the dialog doesn't truly address that subject.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 10:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM purpledawn has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31672
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 43 of 156 (191763)
03-15-2005 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
03-15-2005 4:23 PM


Re: John 3:15
I feel that line 12 is actually the end of Jesus talking.

It could well be that verse 12 is the last example of Jesus speaking. But it seems to me that somewhere in there we move from Jesus speaking to the redactor.

Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Do you see any other way to interpret it?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 4:23 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2005 5:41 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 45 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-16-2005 4:43 AM jar has responded
 Message 49 by Monk, posted 03-16-2005 12:32 PM jar has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1778 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 156 (191766)
03-15-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
03-15-2005 5:26 PM


Re: John 3:15
quote:
Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.
I would agree.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-16-2005 4:52 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13244
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 156 (191869)
03-16-2005 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
03-15-2005 5:26 PM


Re: John 3:15
jar writes:

Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Well, this flies in the face of literally hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the ages. We could say that none of them bothered to "study" the origin of their Bibles...OR...we could say that you are treading in deep water by attempting to intellectualize a spiritual utterance. Again, I remind you that critique of the Gospels leads to the reduction of Christianity to humanist philosophy vs absolute truth. You have normally had some good spiritual insights, but it seems to me that you believe that Christianity is just good ole homespun philosophy. I say, rather, that there is a spiritual impartation that most of the educated Jews...and intellectuals of this day and age...missed.

Do you see any other way to interpret it?

Scripture is not for private interpretation.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-16-2005 02:45 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 50 by Monk, posted 03-16-2005 12:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019