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Author | Topic: What is the Meaning of John 3:16? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I would say yes 5-14 appears to be Jesus' dialog, so does 15. Okay, so in at least 5-14 we find Jesus speaking in the first person. In John 3:5 he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ..." and in John 3:12 he is still speaking in the first person, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" So first person seems like a reasonable assumption. Now if you are speaking in first person and say "Do you believe in him?" are you referring to yourself or to someone else? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Monk Member (Idle past 3950 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
I would be referring to someone else
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay. I believe that would be a reasonable interpretation.
So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...? If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Monk Member (Idle past 3950 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
jar writes: If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction? Ok, I thought that's where you where going. Now let me respond by asking you a question. When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" is he referring to himself or someone else?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" is he referring to himself or someone else? Great question and one that will help, I believe, in looking at John 3. The Term "Son of man" is pretty common in the Bible showing up in Numbers and Job, Psalms and Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekial as well as other places. In each instance it refers not to a divine person but to Joe ordinary. It's only in Daniel that any other interpretation of the term is given. There, at Belshazzar's feast when Daniel is doing some legerdemain for the King the term is given a meaning beyond the ordinary. In the earlier portions of John 3 Jesus uses references to the OT several times. He's also talking about individual salvation, so within that context is seems that when Jesus uses Son of man he's using it in the most prosaic sense. He's saying you can't get lifted up on your own. Somebody else has to do the lifting. And that's GOD. As we move further through John 3 I think there are several other indications that that is the correct interpretation. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Monk Member (Idle past 3950 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
jar writes: He's also talking about individual salvation, so within that context is seems that when Jesus uses Son of man he's using it in the most prosaic sense. He's saying you can't get lifted up on your own. Somebody else has to do the lifting. And that's GOD. So then it is your opinion that Jesus is not referring to himself but to God as the Son of Man?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Nope. At that point I think, if we assume a continuation of the conversation, that Jesus is using Son of man to mean just plain folk.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Monk Member (Idle past 3950 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
jar writes: So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...? And also
jar writes: Nope. At that point I think, if we assume a continuation of the conversation, that Jesus is using Son of man to mean just plain folk. Ok, but let's close our previous thought regarding John 3:15 before we get into the meaning of the Son of Man. I don't believe Jesus is speaking in the first person in 14. I believe the switch occured after 12. It seems to me that 15 is a continuation of the thoughts expressed in 13 and 14. Here are all three:
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. In 13 note the phrase ...but he that came down... referring to the Son of Man. Then in 14, the continuation of the Son of Man reference, stating that the Son of Man must be lifted up as was the serpent by Moses. Followed by ...believeth in him in 15, again referring to the Son of Man. I believe the use of him in 15 is consistent with 13 and 14 and in particular with the use of "he" in 13. Edited for grammer This message has been edited by MyMonkey, 03-15-2005 01:49 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It would seem to me that if the Son of Man was in Heaven then that would not refer to any of us.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Where do you find this stuff anyway? quote:From what I have read, the Nazarenes did not give up their Jewish traditions or intellects when they followed the teachings of Jesus. If you read Jewish history you will find that many Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah went back to Judaism when Christianity started presenting Jesus as a deity and by that time there was no man to have anything laid at his feet. They were unwilling to break the commandment stating that God is one. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Monk Member (Idle past 3950 days) Posts: 782 From: Kansas, USA Joined: |
Phatboy writes: It would seem to me that if the Son of Man was in Heaven then that would not refer to any of us. I agree
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I feel that line 12 is actually the end of Jesus talking. Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, but verse 13 and the rest of the dialog doesn't truly address that subject. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I feel that line 12 is actually the end of Jesus talking. It could well be that verse 12 is the last example of Jesus speaking. But it seems to me that somewhere in there we move from Jesus speaking to the redactor. Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment. Do you see any other way to interpret it? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I would agree. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Well, this flies in the face of literally hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the ages. We could say that none of them bothered to "study" the origin of their Bibles...OR...we could say that you are treading in deep water by attempting to intellectualize a spiritual utterance. Again, I remind you that critique of the Gospels leads to the reduction of Christianity to humanist philosophy vs absolute truth. You have normally had some good spiritual insights, but it seems to me that you believe that Christianity is just good ole homespun philosophy. I say, rather, that there is a spiritual impartation that most of the educated Jews...and intellectuals of this day and age...missed.
Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment. Do you see any other way to interpret it?
Scripture is not for private interpretation. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-16-2005 02:45 AM
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