This settles it.. Never moving down south..

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Originally posted by SLPx:

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:

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Why do our kids have to have evolution forced down their throats? You may think it is a fact. I disagree and so does about half of the US.

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Yeah - why does that gravity get rammed down our kids throats?

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And the Holocaust? Come on people - its just a Zionist plot.

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And we all know that white folks is superior. Why don't that get taught as a fact? It is common sense, after all....

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Exactly. And another one "Not with my tax dollars..."

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Originally posted by acmhttu001_2006:
Nos482,

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Well, then I will not give up the debate. Thank goodness, I have a cut and paste button, if something needs to be typed again and again. LOL.

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Where they get those kind of points that you made, which are typical of creationists', I do not see the logic. My guess, is there is none.

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Well, logic and reason are not needed when one has faith and belief.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
RedVento

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So if God did create and the geo-column was due to a global flood you are saying that the distinctneess of gene families in genomes and the domination of marine sedimentaiton on our continents is irrelevant? So scientific evidence is only relevant if God doesn't exist.

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No. I will tell you, let alone God, that they were relevant. The potential God inhabited universe you allow for is ridiculous.

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The Biblical God not only claimed to do things that must have left evidence he even told us that they did leave evidence! And that evience is there.

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There is somehting in between your silly strawman 'Big Blue Banana' God and evolution.

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Your logical breakdown is that you a priori pretend that God can't have left evidence.

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Hey, the Big Blue Banana is my supreme being example.What is this evidence of god? It is one thing to tell us there is evidence, but it is another to actually show it. And using the circular arguement that one must first have faith and belief that god exists to see this evidence is not proof of anything but self-delusion.BTW, your statement is very disjointed and somewhat confusing. You are beginning to sound desperate.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-06-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Read it again nos482.

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The evidence is distinct lifeforms, distinct gene families and vast marine innundaitons on land. It does not prove anything but it is what we expect.

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And how is this evidence for the existence of your god? This is evidence for evolution from what I see. What you're basically saying is something like this. "Since the banana is shaped "perfectly" to fit the human hand and has a little tab on the end to peel it from that this proves the existence of god." (BTW, the correct way to peel a banana is from the other end, and not the stem.) Do you know how silly your statement sounds to us.

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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Originally posted by nos482:

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Read it again nos482.

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The evidence is distinct lifeforms, distinct gene families and vast marine innundaitons on land. It does not prove anything but it is what we expect.

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And how is this evidence for the existence of your god? This is evidence for evolution from what I see. What you're basically saying is something like this. "Since the banana is shaped "perfectly" to fit the human hand and has a little tab on the end to peel it from that this proves the existence of god." (BTW, the correct way to peel a banana is from the other end, and not the stem.) Do you know how silly your statement sounds to us.

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I didn't realize that there was a "correct" way to peel a banana.

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What advantage is gained by peeling it from the bottom?

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Actually it peels much easier from the bottom than the top. This is how other banana eating primates do it as well.

Originally posted by John:I once got a pamplet from a local church which said exactly this.I had heard it from a TV preacher.The same pamplet explained how, since Coke cans do not arise spontaneously, neither can life arise via abiogenesis.It's amazing how they use an apples and oranges arguement to convince some. It just goes to show much bad science education is at the grade school level in the USA.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-07-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
nos

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Have a look at the use of the word 'distinct' in my post. Maybe it's nothing to do with bananas.

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What can be more 'distinct' than a banana? There is no other fruit which looks like it. Being distinct is not evidence of your god. It is evidence of evolution through the use of beneficial mutations getting passed along to the next generation.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-08-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
RV

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My 2 lesson syllabus for creation (see Quetzal's thread) outlines the evidence for creation that is Bible free. This is appropriate for a governmnet school course. It will not stop me from elsewhere demonstrating evidence of the Biblical God.

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In order to have creation you need a creator and that creator is called god. And since the only place you will find god (Christian god) is in the bible it is totally impossible to separate the two.Plus, you contradict yourself by saying the it can be taught without the bible yet you state that you want to demonstrate evidence for the so-called "Biblical God". Your agenda is quite clear.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-08-2002]

Originally posted by Tranquility Base:nos

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In your happy little universe it is obviously impossible to conceive of the scenario that God did create and leave behind evidence. That is quite ridiculous.You should join us in the real world, it is free of the ignorance and superstition of yours. No, what is ridiculous is believing in an imaginary invisible sky father who will punish you if you do the least "bad thing", but still loves you.You paint creationists as stoneage thinkers but use this type of logic.Don't blame me if they are painting a self-portrait.As in the above post my agenda is irrelevant if I have integrity.A creationist with integrity? HAHAHAHAHA! Thanks for the laugh.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-10-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
RV

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My personal Christian experience makes it unlikely I will disown literal creation. I personally think the data is too murky. I just don't know what would happen if the data pointed incredibly clearly to evoltuion. All I can say is what I believe now. And all I am doing on this web site is explaining why I believe the data points to creation at the gross level and can be interpreted in detail that way as well. I clainm no proof. The real reason I believe in creation is becasue of my Christian experince and almost any creaitonist will tell you that. The data itself can be interpreted either way with approximately the same success.

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I've got news for you, it does point to evolution as being real. The evidence is so overwhelming that even the Catholic Church had to accept it as the truth.The only reason why creationists may interpret the data the wrong way is that they don't use real science, they believe in pseudo-science where if the evidence doesn't follow the theory the evidence is tossed out and the theory is kept.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Mammuthus

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I admitt I did not beleive through science. But having beleived I can see that the science does point to creation.

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What about others? I know several creationist who claim to have come through science and others through Biblical archeology.

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Only if you use pseudo-science, but hey pseudo-scientists also believe in alien made crop circles and pyramids, psychic surgery, and other such nonsense as well.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Nos

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It sounds like you better start showing us what this pseudo-science is that we use.

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A hint before you do - don't mix up the scientific evidence with the potential creative cause uncovered by the evidence or even the miraculous nature of the hypothesis being tested by scientific observation.

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There is absolutely no verifible, credible, nor unbiased evidence in favor of Creationism yet creationists still cling to their "theory". They routinely dismiss the mountains of evidence in favor of Evolution. This is why creationism will never be anything other than religiously inspired pseudo-science.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ I will admitt that we are claiming a conspiracy theory of a sort Joe. The scriptures tell us in black and white, in the context of creation and he flood that:

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They will say . . . everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 2 Pet 3:4-7

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So yes, mainstream science has deliberately turned its back on the proclamaiton of scripture. And those who did it were in the context of an openly Christian society.

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At the end of the day it is a spiritual conspiracy but it has physical ramifiations. the data can be interpreted either way and we are all free to choose. There is a narrow way and a broad way.

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PS I do love the humour of your post. The idea of Exon coming and wanting to recruit from people with PhDs in YEC is highly amusing. Or a YEC section at a geo confernce. I wonder how Austin introduces himself? 'I do global flood geology' must go down like a lead balloon. YECism as a mainstream concept is funny in the context of secular society. Although I can laugh at this the present situation saddens me for obvious reasons.

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I am a realist but at the same time I am utterly convinced that God would tell you that that geo-column got there by the flood and 'I don't care that you thought the data pointed in a different direction'.

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And you wonder why we don't take you seriously. "IT'S A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!" What a load. There is no conspiracy. There doesn't need to be one since there is no real evidence in favor of creationism. The only conspiracy here is that of creationists trying to pass their pseudo-science off as legitimate science.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
nos

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Your post contsains no hint of pseudo science from us - just that you are prepared to state things that you can't back up. I hate pseudo science so I can gaurentee that we don't do it! If I see a hint of it in a creationist, I, like TC for example, direct them to the data and tell them to stop arguing against data. For years I told creaitonoists that the rocks demonstrate vast amounts of radiodecay for example. This arguing against data has largely been exorcised from the creaitonist community.

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Please, you're a creationsist youself. An OEC, maybe, but still a creationists. Just because you are incorporating some real science into your beliefs doesn't mean that the vast majority of the rest isn't just plain crap. Just being a creationists is enough to declare the use of pseudo-science since this is the ONLY way you can state ID and other such nonsense. Legimate science wouldn't touch this nonsense.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-13-2002]

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Originally posted by schrafinator:

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I am a realist but at the same time I am utterly convinced that God would tell you that that geo-column got there by the flood and 'I don't care that you thought the data pointed in a different direction'.

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Then did God put all the evidence in place to deliberately mislead us?

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No, to test our faith in him/her/it... Afterall, god constantly needs to be reassured that we believe in him/her/it and of course god works in mysterious ways and it is not up to us poor ignorant sinners to understand this.