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Author Topic:   When did God curse us to hell?
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 1 of 20 (190496)
03-07-2005 3:06 PM


In Genesis, per the advice of the serpent (no mention of Satan is made), Adam and Eve eat of the fruit. God then curses Adam, stating that he will toil until he returns to the dust from which he was made. God then kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden less they eat of another tree and live forever.
Not until several thousand years later do we see (in the NT) that God now expects us to live after death in the Heavens or Hell.
My questions:
Where in the Old Testament does God explicitly curse us to Hell?
Why would God want us to live forever (as an extension to our mortal bodies) with him in Heaven if he did not want Adam to live forever? It appears that Adam was mortal, had no soul, and only lived by the breath of God.
Thanks,
Eric

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2005 12:54 AM Dilyias has replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 5 of 20 (193725)
03-23-2005 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
03-23-2005 12:54 AM


the answer: everywhere. simply put, everyone in the old testament is going to hell.
When "hell" is in reference to the grave (returning to dust), that makes sense. It appears that eventually people believed that part of the individual existed after death, thus the grave becomes an abode of the dead, and later ruled by an anti-god figure.
This really doesn't make much sense with God's original purpose for Adam; to keep the garden and multiply. There is no evidence of a "soul" that exists after death in early Genesis.
In other words, God's original purpose for man was to live on this earth. Humankind would stay "alive" through the process of having offspring rather than the individual person living forever after returning to dust. For a mortal was nothing but dust with the breath of God keeping it alive (per Genesis).
It appears to me that the purpose for Jesus was the product of the evolution of human thought of afterlife, not because the Old Testament God changed his mind about the purpose and lifespan of mortals.
Does this make sense to anyone else or am I off my rocker? :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2005 12:54 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2005 11:00 PM Dilyias has replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 9 of 20 (193859)
03-24-2005 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by arachnophilia
03-23-2005 11:00 PM


actually, i think it MAY have been the other way around. i think the concept of an afterlife may have actually existed first, and have disappeared by the time of the writing of the bible.
I would be interested to see what you can dig up about this.
you're mixing up the two stories. ..
Yes, I agree that they are two unrelated stories. However, my point was to show that God's intention for mankind was one of mortality. So I agree with you there.
quite. genesis 1 has quite a respect for evolution. for instance, if you pay close attention, it's not god that creates the animals -- it's the earth. god commands the earth, and the earth does it.
Very interesting, indeed. I have not thought of this before.
i think jesus was out to reform judaism, not be your ticket to heaven.
This is my position as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2005 11:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 03-24-2005 1:07 AM Dilyias has not replied

  
Dilyias
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 21
From: Minnesota
Joined: 10-02-2003


Message 11 of 20 (193865)
03-24-2005 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
03-23-2005 2:57 AM


It could also be argued that God was never speaking to us in the O.T.
By definition, "us" is a group of people who would never have been allowed or invited to even know the truth until the revelation of the mystery by the Apostle Paul.
Regardless of who God (or the human author(s) of Genesis) was talking to, there is no mention of man living beyond death or having a soul. Eternal life does not really fit with God's stated purpose for man in either story (be fruitful and multiply, keep the garden).
What is more realistic - progressive revelation that adds completely new ideas to an existing text, or evolution of thought?
Throughout history we see how the thoughts and ideas of humans have evolved.
But some Christian ideas (like the idea that God created a new "good" creation, put Adam in the garden, and then let Satan control the snake) just do not "fit" with the original story.
The question that I would ask is this: How does God speak to "us" today?
And the answer will very by Christian. Some say that He speaks to us in prayer. Some say that He only speaks to us through the Bible ( Which is no different than saying we read the Bible and decide what it means to us).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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