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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4664 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 31 of 123 (193737)
03-23-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 4:50 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
I was responding to your first point, and we seem to have gotten sidetracked. You stated that a person who choose to leave Christianity must not have "met God". That seemed to me to be both fallacious (hence my original comments concerning the No True Scotsman fallacy) and factually untrue (I at one time whole-heartedly believed in Christianity but no longer do).

So, I have three questions:

1. Do you maintain your original position?

And, If the answer to #1 is "yes":

2. Precisely what do you mean by "met God"?

3. How do you reply to my main criticism of it, i.e. that I am a counterexample that disproves your position?

This message has been edited by mikehager, 03-23-2005 05:50 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM mikehager has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 123 (193741)
03-23-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by mikehager
03-23-2005 5:42 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
mikehager writes:

How do you reply to my main criticism of it, i.e. that I am a counterexample that disproves your position?


Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?

Did you have multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm? Was it a good feeling?

I feel confidant that God is with me every moment. This is subjective, to be sure but did you ever have such confidence away from the church?

If the above are yes, why in the world are you so intent on sticking with facts and not stepping out in faith?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by mikehager, posted 03-23-2005 5:42 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mikehager, posted 03-23-2005 6:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 34 by Asgara, posted 03-23-2005 7:20 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 35 by purpledawn, posted 03-23-2005 7:38 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 36 by Citizzzen, posted 03-23-2005 9:37 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 40 by nator, posted 03-23-2005 10:51 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Dr Jack, posted 03-29-2005 4:11 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4664 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 33 of 123 (193745)
03-23-2005 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?

Did you have multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm? Was it a good feeling?

I feel confidant that God is with me every moment. This is subjective, to be sure but did you ever have such confidence away from the church?

The answer to all of the above is yes. I did all of those.

If the above are yes, why in the world are you so intent on sticking with facts and not stepping out in faith?

I came to some realizations and knew that I had been in error in all those things you listed.

You still didn't tell me what you meant by "met God". If a positive reply to your three questions constitutes it, then I certainly have had the experience you call meeting God.

So, since I meet the requirements of your argument and yet am a living, breathing counter-example, are you willing to admit that a true, faithful to the core Christian who has "met God" can later embrace Atheism and Naturalism? Or do you have some other argument in favor of your position?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by mikehager, posted 03-24-2005 11:47 PM mikehager has responded
 Message 49 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-29-2005 10:13 AM mikehager has responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 34 of 123 (193764)
03-23-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
Phat, I have a question regarding this. I use to be a believer. I tried for many, many years to continue my faith but I finally came to the realization that I was NOT feeling what others told me I should be feeling. There was nothing there despite all my prayer and all my serious and honest trying. When I tell ppl that, I am then told that "feeling" something isn't a given and if I only believed because I thought I would feel differently, then THAT was wrong.

Please tell me...was I suppose to feel something or wasn't I? This is just one more thing that the Xians I talk to about this can't keep straight.


Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 PM Asgara has responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 35 of 123 (193776)
03-23-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
quote:
Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?
I grew up in the Christian Church. If my lifestyle is already Christian, how much can it change after accepting Christ?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 123 (193798)
03-23-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Christians "feel" God, Muslims "Feel" Allah, and I feel fine.
"...Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation... Multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm... Was it a good feeling..."

Again, this begs the question, what do believers in other deities feel? And if they DO feel a connection like you describe, what does that suggest? Also, if they DO feel something like you suggest, but it is false, how would they know, or how would you?

Citizzzen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 123 (193817)
03-23-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
03-21-2005 10:19 AM


quote:
I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!

How would I know it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2005 10:19 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 123 (193822)
03-23-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
quote:
My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.

But what if someone told me they met Elvis last week?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 123 (193824)
03-23-2005 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
quote:
What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced. Would you stick to your rational mind and attempt every way to explain your experience within a empiracal framework?
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you?

How do I tell the difference between talking with God and talking with myself?

How do I tell the difference between feelings I get from a divine presence and similar feelings I self induce?

(remember, people have had deep religious experiences induced by a neuroscientist tweaking a certain part of their brain while they were undergoing brain surgery)

How do YOU know that the feelings you are getting aren't from Krishna or Thor, amused that you keep praying to a different god but going ahead and communing with you anyway?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 03-24-2005 6:50 AM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 123 (193830)
03-23-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
Phat, do you want to know what it is like for the ex-believer?

Here's what it's like, and you yourself probably know exactly what it's like.

Remember when you were a child and believed wholeheartedly in the existence of Santa Claus?

Now that you are an adult you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, right?

Would you say that you never really believed in Santa Claus as a child, or would that be inaccurate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 123 (193961)
03-24-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
03-23-2005 10:39 PM


Tough Questions
I don't feel Phat truly wanted to understand the ex-believer.

He would prefer that I assume that for over 40 years I didn't "believe" correctly, which actually shows that Christianity is unable to teach people how to "meet" God consistently. They have no way to certify that one has truly and irreversibly met God.

He has spent most of this thread asserting that he has truly met God and that we are to believe him (Phatboy), but he refuses to believe that former believers felt they had met God also.

Unfortunately he is unable to tell any of us the details of meeting God or how we can actually meet his God the same way he did and know that we did it right.

This would be a very interesting discussion if he would take it seriously.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 03-23-2005 10:39 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-24-2005 9:10 AM purpledawn has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 123 (193997)
03-24-2005 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
03-24-2005 6:50 AM


Re: Tough Questions
I have a friend who has a bumper sticker that says;

"Militant Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either".

It's conversations like this one with Phat that confirm my Agnosticism more and more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 03-24-2005 6:50 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 03-24-2005 1:15 PM nator has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1654 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 123 (194050)
03-24-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nator
03-24-2005 9:10 AM


Believing Is Seeing
As the little elf on "The Santa Clause" said, "Seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing."

Unfortunately they are unable to tell us what precisely to believe to replicate the experience for ourselves.

Instead of drawing us back, they strengthen our disbelief in their tenets.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-24-2005 9:10 AM nator has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4659
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 44 of 123 (194220)
03-24-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Asgara
03-23-2005 7:20 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
You were not supposed to feel anything if you didn't.

Christ says "blessed is he that believes and has not seen".

Christ also said that being single was a blessing. Tell me, what man would consider that a blessing for all of their days?

And so, Christians may have experiences, all different. Some might have no experience. I have had no experience. I have always believed in God and I believe this is something to do with the fabric of my physical make-up. i.e. My personality.

Often Shraff says "it's your martyr complex mike". You see, I can't hide my personality. Either something in us is like God so we believe in him, or you have the "born again" scenario, which is the old "give your heart to Cheezus via Lenny Binn's bank account":).

I'm the former. I beg God to give me a visit but the sucker insists on blessing the shit out of me.

Regards honestly, mike. :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Asgara, posted 03-23-2005 7:20 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Asgara, posted 03-24-2005 7:46 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 45 of 123 (194223)
03-24-2005 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by mike the wiz
03-24-2005 7:38 PM


Thanks for reply
Thanks for the reply darlin',

I have always been confused on this issue. Some Xians tell me that if I didn't feel "something" I wasn't a real Xian. Some tell me that thinking I had to feel "something" was wrong. Just looking for some consistency.

Oh..and welcome back Mike ;)


Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
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