What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?

I was responding to your first point, and we seem to have gotten sidetracked. You stated that a person who choose to leave Christianity must not have "met God". That seemed to me to be both fallacious (hence my original comments concerning the No True Scotsman fallacy) and factually untrue (I at one time whole-heartedly believed in Christianity but no longer do).So, I have three questions:1. Do you maintain your original position?And, If the answer to #1 is "yes":2. Precisely what do you mean by "met God"?3. How do you reply to my main criticism of it, i.e. that I am a counterexample that disproves your position?This message has been edited by mikehager, 03-23-2005 05:50 PM

Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?Did you have multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm? Was it a good feeling?I feel confidant that God is with me every moment. This is subjective, to be sure but did you ever have such confidence away from the church?If the above are yes, why in the world are you so intent on sticking with facts and not stepping out in faith?

The answer to all of the above is yes. I did all of those. I came to some realizations and knew that I had been in error in all those things you listed.You still didn't tell me what you meant by "met God". If a positive reply to your three questions constitutes it, then I certainly have had the experience you call meeting God.So, since I meet the requirements of your argument and yet am a living, breathing counter-example, are you willing to admit that a true, faithful to the core Christian who has "met God" can later embrace Atheism and Naturalism? Or do you have some other argument in favor of your position?

Phat, I have a question regarding this. I use to be a believer. I tried for many, many years to continue my faith but I finally came to the realization that I was NOT feeling what others told me I should be feeling. There was nothing there despite all my prayer and all my serious and honest trying. When I tell ppl that, I am then told that "feeling" something isn't a given and if I only believed because I thought I would feel differently, then THAT was wrong.Please tell me...was I suppose to feel something or wasn't I? This is just one more thing that the Xians I talk to about this can't keep straight.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"select * from USERS where CLUE > 0http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

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Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?

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I grew up in the Christian Church. If my lifestyle is already Christian, how much can it change after accepting Christ?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

"...Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation... Multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm... Was it a good feeling..."Again, this begs the question, what do believers in other deities feel? And if they DO feel a connection like you describe, what does that suggest? Also, if they DO feel something like you suggest, but it is false, how would they know, or how would you?Citizzzen

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I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!

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How would I know it?

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My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.

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But what if someone told me they met Elvis last week?

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What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced. Would you stick to your rational mind and attempt every way to explain your experience within a empiracal framework?
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you?

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How do I tell the difference between talking with God and talking with myself?How do I tell the difference between feelings I get from a divine presence and similar feelings I self induce?(remember, people have had deep religious experiences induced by a neuroscientist tweaking a certain part of their brain while they were undergoing brain surgery)How do YOU know that the feelings you are getting aren't from Krishna or Thor, amused that you keep praying to a different god but going ahead and communing with you anyway?

Phat, do you want to know what it is like for the ex-believer?Here's what it's like, and you yourself probably know exactly what it's like.Remember when you were a child and believed wholeheartedly in the existence of Santa Claus?Now that you are an adult you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, right?Would you say that you never really believed in Santa Claus as a child, or would that be inaccurate?

I don't feel Phat truly wanted to understand the ex-believer.He would prefer that I assume that for over 40 years I didn't "believe" correctly, which actually shows that Christianity is unable to teach people how to "meet" God consistently. They have no way to certify that one has truly and irreversibly met God.He has spent most of this thread asserting that he has truly met God and that we are to believe him (Phatboy), but he refuses to believe that former believers felt they had met God also.Unfortunately he is unable to tell any of us the details of meeting God or how we can actually meet his God the same way he did and know that we did it right.This would be a very interesting discussion if he would take it seriously.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

I have a friend who has a bumper sticker that says;"Militant Agnostic: I don't know and you don't either".It's conversations like this one with Phat that confirm my Agnosticism more and more.

As the little elf on "The Santa Clause" said, "Seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing."Unfortunately they are unable to tell us what precisely to believe to replicate the experience for ourselves.Instead of drawing us back, they strengthen our disbelief in their tenets.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

You were not supposed to feel anything if you didn't.Christ says "blessed is he that believes and has not seen".Christ also said that being single was a blessing. Tell me, what man would consider that a blessing for all of their days?And so, Christians may have experiences, all different. Some might have no experience. I have had no experience. I have always believed in God and I believe this is something to do with the fabric of my physical make-up. i.e. My personality.Often Shraff says "it's your martyr complex mike". You see, I can't hide my personality. Either something in us is like God so we believe in him, or you have the "born again" scenario, which is the old "give your heart to Cheezus via Lenny Binn's bank account".I'm the former. I beg God to give me a visit but the sucker insists on blessing the shit out of me.Regards honestly, mike.

Thanks for the reply darlin',I have always been confused on this issue. Some Xians tell me that if I didn't feel "something" I wasn't a real Xian. Some tell me that thinking I had to feel "something" was wrong. Just looking for some consistency.Oh..and welcome back Mike

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"select * from USERS where CLUE > 0http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com