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Author Topic:   Mendel wasn't entirely right
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (193795)
03-23-2005 9:34 PM


Here's an interesting article for discussion from the New York Times. It'll only be available for seven days before it is archived and you have to pay for it, so I'll post the entire thing. Also, for those of you who don't want to read the entire article, I'll provide a summary.
The plant arabidopsis shocked scientists by correcting a mutated gene. This correction can't be accounted for by any known mechanism for gene correction, and scientists could not find any backup copy of the gene in the DNA. The best theory available, or the "least mad hypothesis," as Dr. Surridge called it, is that a backup copy exists in the RNA. However, backup templates should be more reliable than the original, and RNA is more error-prone than DNA. As a result, this study represents an unprecedented exception to Mendel's laws on inheritance. Although it's a little early to draw conclusive and final interpretations, this study does represent a stumbling block for mutation, which is one of the foundations of evolution. Additionally, it creates problems with the evolutionary view of sex as a corrective mechanism for mutations, posing serious questions for the bdelloid rotifiers (which were sexless for millions of years) as a candidate for evolution.
Two issues that I think are relevant
1. Obviously, the effect this study has on the theroy of evolution in relation to mutation.
2. The trustworthiness of evolution in general. Think about it, very few, if any, myself included, considered Mendel's laws of inheritance to be a questionable aspect of evolution. It was more widely accepted than evolution itself. But all of a sudden, one day, this study comes along, proving that Mendel wasn't entirely correct. If we can't entirely trust Mendel, is it wise to continue to treat evolution as the "holy grail" it has become?
Startling Scientists, Plant Fixes Its Flawed Gene - The New York Times
New York Times
March 23, 2005
Startling Scientists, Plant Fixes Its Flawed Gene
By NICHOLAS WADE
In a startling discovery, geneticists at Purdue University say they have found plants that possess a corrected version of a defective gene inherited from both their parents, as if some handy backup copy with the right version had been made in the grandparents' generation or earlier.
The finding implies that some organisms may contain a cryptic backup copy of their genome that bypasses the usual mechanisms of heredity. If confirmed, it would represent an unprecedented exception to the laws of inheritance discovered by Gregor Mendel in the 19th century. Equally surprising, the cryptic genome appears not to be made of DNA, the standard hereditary material.
The discovery also raises interesting biological questions - including whether it gets in the way of evolution, which depends on mutations changing an organism rather than being put right by a backup system.
"It looks like a marvelous discovery," said Dr. Elliott Meyerowitz, a plant geneticist at the California Institute of Technology. Dr. David Haig, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, described the finding as "a really strange and unexpected result," which would be important if the observation holds up and applies widely in nature.
The result, reported online yesterday in the journal Nature by Dr. Robert E. Pruitt, Dr. Susan J. Lolle and colleagues at Purdue, has been found in a single species, the mustardlike plant called arabidopsis that is the standard laboratory organism of plant geneticists. But there are hints that the same mechanism may occur in people, according to a commentary by Dr. Detlef Weigel of the Max-Planck Institute for Developmental Biology in Tbingen, Germany. Dr. Weigel describes the Purdue work as "a spectacular discovery."
The finding grew out of a research project started three years ago in which Dr. Pruitt and Dr. Lolle were trying to understand the genes that control the plant's outer skin, or cuticle. As part of the project, they were studying plants with a mutated gene that made the plant's petals and other floral organs clump together. Because each of the plant's two copies of the gene were in mutated form, they had virtually no chance of having normal offspring.
But up to 10 percent of the plants' offspring kept reverting to normal. Various rare events can make this happen, but none involve altering the actual sequence of DNA units in the gene. Yet when the researchers analyzed the mutated gene, known as hothead, they found it had changed, with the mutated DNA units being changed back to normal form.
"That was the moment when it was a complete shock," Dr. Pruitt said.
A mutated gene can be put right by various mechanisms that are already known, but all require a correct copy of the gene to be available to serve as the template. The Purdue team scanned the DNA of the entire arabidopsis genome for a second, cryptic copy of the hothead gene but could find none.
Dr. Pruitt and his colleagues argue that a correct template must exist, but because it is not in the form of DNA, it probably exists as RNA, DNA's close chemical cousin. RNA performs many important roles in the cell, and is the hereditary material of some viruses. But it is less stable than DNA, and so has been regarded as unsuitable for preserving the genetic information of higher organisms.
Dr. Pruitt said he favored the idea that there is an RNA backup copy for the entire genome, not just the hothead gene, and that it might be set in motion when the plant was under stress, as is the case with those having mutated hothead genes.
He and other experts said it was possible that an entire RNA backup copy of the genome could exist without being detected, especially since there has been no reason until now to look for it.
Scientific journals often take months or years to get comfortable with articles presenting novel ideas. But Nature accepted the paper within six weeks of receiving it. Dr. Christopher Surridge, a biology editor at Nature, said the finding had been discussed at scientific conferences for quite a while, with people saying it was impossible and proposing alternative explanations. But the authors had checked all these out and disposed of them, Dr. Surridge said.
As for their proposal of a backup RNA genome, "that is very much a hypothesis, and basically the least mad hypothesis for how this might be working," Dr. Surridge said.
Dr. Haig, the evolutionary biologist, said that the finding was fascinating but that it was too early to try to interpret it. He noted that if there was a cryptic template, it ought to be more resistant to mutation than the DNA it helps correct. Yet it is hard to make this case for RNA, which accumulates many more errors than DNA when it is copied by the cell.
He said that the mechanism, if confirmed, would be an unprecedented exception to Mendel's laws of inheritance, since the DNA sequence itself is changed. Imprinting, an odd feature of inheritance of which Dr. Haig is a leading student, involves inherited changes to the way certain genes are activated, not to the genes themselves.
The finding poses a puzzle for evolutionary theory because it corrects mutations, which evolution depends on as generators of novelty. Dr. Meyerowitz said he did not see this posing any problem for evolution because it seems to happen only rarely. "What keeps Darwinian evolution intact is that this only happens when there is something wrong," Dr. Surridge said.
The finding could undercut a leading theory of why sex is necessary. Some biologists say sex is needed to discard the mutations, almost all of them bad, that steadily accumulate on the genome. People inherit half of their genes from each parent, which allows the half left on the cutting room floor to carry away many bad mutations. Dr. Pruitt said the backup genome could be particularly useful for self-fertilizing plants, as arabidopsis is, since it could help avoid the adverse effects of inbreeding. It might also operate in the curious organisms known as bdelloid rotifers that are renowned for not having had sex for millions of years, an abstinence that would be expected to seriously threaten their Darwinian fitness.
Dr. Pruitt said it was not yet known if other organisms besides arabidopsis could possess the backup system. Colleagues had been quite receptive to the idea because "biologists have gotten used to the unexpected," he said, referring to a spate of novel mechanisms that have recently come to light, several involving RNA.
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-23-2005 06:22 PM

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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 65 (193796)
03-23-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by commike37
03-23-2005 9:34 PM


Moved from PNT
by AdminJar

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 3 of 65 (193841)
03-23-2005 11:29 PM


Leaving it to the biologists, but I will mention...
Terry, at Terry's Talk Origins, has also started a topic on this.
The king of the "pretty worthless topic title" calls it More anti-evolution evidence.
Moose, in the slightly cranky mode

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 4 of 65 (193919)
03-24-2005 4:12 AM


Since neither priority of posting nor direct reference to the scientific literature seem to count for anything anymore I might as well post the link to the original research article here.
A letter to Nature reports research suggesting that Arabidopsis can, in some instances, revert to an ancestral wild type allele instead of a parental mutant.
Nature 434, 505 - 509 (24 March 2005)
Genome-wide non-mendelian inheritance of extra-genomic information in Arabidopsis
SUSAN J. LOLLE*, JENNIFER L. VICTOR, JESSICA M. YOUNG & ROBERT E. PRUITT*
A fundamental tenet of classical mendelian genetics is that allelic information is stably inherited from one generation to the next, resulting in predictable segregation patterns of differing alleles. Although several exceptions to this principle are known, all represent specialized cases that are mechanistically restricted to either a limited set of specific genes (for example mating type conversion in yeast) or specific types of alleles (for example alleles containing transposons or repeated sequences). Here we show that Arabidopsis plants homozygous for recessive mutant alleles of the organ fusion gene HOTHEAD (HTH) can inherit allele-specific DNA sequence information that was not present in the chromosomal genome of their parents but was present in previous generations. This previously undescribed process is shown to occur at all DNA sequence polymorphisms examined and therefore seems to be a general mechanism for extra-genomic inheritance of DNA sequence information. We postulate that these genetic restoration events are the result of a template-directed process that makes use of an ancestral RNA-sequence cache.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 03-24-2005 05:28 AM
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 03-24-2005 12:29 PM

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 5 of 65 (193962)
03-24-2005 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by commike37
03-23-2005 9:34 PM


In answer to 1.
It does affect evolution, but probably not as much as you might think. The proportion of revertants is not so high as to present any real problem for mutation and the spread of mutations, except perhaps in the case where the mutation is particularly detrimental. If anything this would seem to be a helpful accessory mechanism biasing evolution more towards beneficial mutations. It may retard the spread of an allele through the population, but that is about the only negative effect I can see.
2: Anyone who is familiar with modern genetics could tell you that Mendel's laws are not the be all and end all of genetics. There are numerous examples of epigenetic markers, segregation affecting mechanisms and cytoplasmic modes of inheritance which are outwith the boundaries of Mendelian genetics.
Given that Darwin formulated his theories about evolution with absoloutely no knowledge of Mendelian genetics I fail to see why it should be a nail in evolutions coffin. Certainly the modern synthesis does include a very strong emphasis on genetics, but it is certainly not restricted to Mendelian genetics.
I think the problem is more with your view of the importance of Mendelian genetics in evolution than with the impact these findings will actually have.
There are already many multi-factorial factors which must be treated as non-mendelian because of the complexity of analysing their inheritance. The only real problem will be for the poor population geneticists.
The real key question in terms of evolution as a whole, and what role this phenomenon has played in it, is whether this is actually a wide spread phenomenon, indeed it may not be a wholly replicable one but I have no reason to doubt the research, time will tell. It may be a peculiarity of arabidopsis or a particular sub-domain of the plant kingdom. One other example that is referenced of an ancestral marker recurring is from (Song, 1995) in another plant paper.

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6448 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 6 of 65 (194002)
03-24-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 6:52 AM


At first blush this sounds as though there is a mechanism for error control coding in the genome of these plants. Maybe the authors should go to the EE department and chat with some communications engineers.

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 65 (194004)
03-24-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by paisano
03-24-2005 9:31 AM


quote:
At first blush this sounds as though there is a mechanism for error control coding in the genome of these plants. Maybe the authors should go to the EE department and chat with some communications engineers.
Agreed.
--
Backup copies are often not on inherently more reliable media than the originals. Theye are rather inactive, and remote, so they are not subject to the same changes as the original.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 03-24-2005 09:36 AM

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 8 of 65 (194011)
03-24-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by paisano
03-24-2005 9:31 AM


I don't know much about Error Control Coding, but I think you may be wrong. There are a number of well understood mechanisms which maintain the genetic code and work to correct errors which arise during DNA synthesis. The new phenomenon may well be a new mechanism by which this can be achieved but it appears to be unique in that the 'repair' is not enacted until the subsequent generation or beyond. It is this delay in the correction of the 'error' that makes it so unusual.
It may be that the Hothead gene itself has some peculiar novel role which allows this to happen. If it were a widespread phenomenon in response to de-novo mutation then I would imagine it would have been noticed by now in the many intensive programs of genetic crosses which are performed in plant science, especially on arabidopsis. The paper suggests that the mutation of HTH may greatly increase the frequency of an otherwise very rarely operating mechanism.
I have to say that towards the end the authors discussion seems to verge on the teleological but it may just be that their ideas are so vague and numinous as to allow for many interpretations.
TTFN,
WK

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 65 (194021)
03-24-2005 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by commike37
03-23-2005 9:34 PM


First of all let me berate you for beating me to opening a new thread on this topic, and then not telling me so I wouldn't have wasted my time creating one! Grrrr.
Ah well...
I actually think several issues can be seen within this, but I'll stick with your two.
1) Yes, it is possible that this will change models of mutation. It certainly already has for that one plant, but there could be more.
2) I don't think it shoots down ToE as "trustworthy" in general, because nothing in this strikes at the general idea of evolution. It appears to involve a mechanism for healing, which could simply be a trait that effects specific tenets of evolution, rather than the larger picture. Frankly it almost sounds like lamarke could have a bit of a come back.
However I think it does allow some creos and IDists to get their foot in the door. Until the mechanism is understood, it is logically possible to view this as an example that DNA is not simply copy and mutate, but that there is an underlying "code" which unpacks itself on command and was prepackaged at the beginning (creation) of life.
This argument could be launched because obviously the plant was able to mutate, yet still have its original code packaged and hidden somewhere else. What's more it was able to utilize the hidden original code in the next generation. What else is packaged away somewhere? Maybe that's what all of life has been about?
Not saying I believe that, but it does get a foot in the door.
They might also use this to show how evolutionary theorists originally tried to undercut the study by not funding it, since it seemed to dispute evo dogma, but then discovered something amazing because they invested in the research despite doubts. IDists have been making noise along those lines for years.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 10 of 65 (194023)
03-24-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
03-24-2005 10:31 AM


This argument could be launched because obviously the plant was able to mutate, yet still have its original code packaged and hidden somewhere else.
You are making this much more mysterious sounding than what the authors propose. They don't suggest that the template is 'packaged' or 'hidden'. What they propose as a tentative model is that the template consists of a double stranded or otherwise stabilised form of RNA.
It isn't 'hidden' simply because no one previously thought to look for it. I imagine the first thing they should do would be to use RT-PCR to show the presence of RNA encoding the ancestral template. This might also give them some idea of how many different templates there are depending on their approach.
It is a huge leap to go from the 'cacheing' of previously extant alleles of a gene to the storing of all the future alleles that an organism will ever need. Lets be honest, your zygote would have to consist of almost nothing but dsRNA (for instance) it is almost as patently ridiculous as the preformationist concept of the homonculus.
I appreciate that you are just throwing these up as hypothetical objections, but as you have formulated them they seem about as weak as all the current IDist objections to modern evolutionary theory.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 11 of 65 (194024)
03-24-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
03-24-2005 10:31 AM


They might also use this to show how evolutionary theorists originally tried to undercut the study by not funding it, since it seemed to dispute evo dogma, but then discovered something amazing because they invested in the research despite doubts. IDists have been making noise along those lines for years.
I'm sure they will make these objections, but all it will be doing is once again showing their lack of familiarity with the way science works in practice. Most grant applications require a substantial amount of background research suggesting they will be fruitful and all grant funding is heavily competed for.
It is bound to be the case that the evidence for the more outre topics must be more compelling than is required for the everyday. To be frank only having to wait 6 months for the review process to come round again and gain funding seems pretty quick.
TTFN,
WK

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 65 (194028)
03-24-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 10:53 AM


It isn't 'hidden' simply because no one previously thought to look for it.
Uhmmmm, I hate to say this, but that doesn't actually help your case. I realize it could have been "overlooked" rather than "hidden", but the result is the same.
And even worse, this is almost exactly what IDists have been arguing, that evos have been overlooking areas of research based on evo dogma. If this has been overlooked, what else might have been?
Lets be honest, your zygote would have to consist of almost nothing but dsRNA (for instance) it is almost as patently ridiculous as the preformationist concept of the homonculus.
To be honest, I do not have the technical knowledge to know just how ridiculous it would be. However, I'm certain there could be ways to "shorten" the template such that it is only compressed... maybe in in the "junk DNA"?
I appreciate that you are just throwing these up as hypothetical objections, but as you have formulated them they seem about as weak as all the current IDist objections to modern evolutionary theory.
Heheheh... does it have to be better?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Taqless
Member (Idle past 5939 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 13 of 65 (194029)
03-24-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 10:53 AM


WK,
I couldn't get access to the whole paper, but I had a few questions that you might have been able to glean.
This previously undescribed process is shown to occur at all DNA sequence polymorphisms examined...
1. So, not just their pet gene?
2. Did they arrive at this homozygous recessive gene through crossing (well, I guess so since transposons typically land in more than one place as I recall)?
3. Is it possible it "mutated" back to the original sequence?
Besides I agree with you in that I certainly don't think one gene in any way confounds the ToE.
Lastly, the paper you cited was a polyploid plant...maybe I'm too new to the whole science arena, but I didn't find that particularly surprising.

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commike37
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (194031)
03-24-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
03-24-2005 6:52 AM


The proportion of revertants is not so high as to present any real problem for mutation and the spread of mutations, except perhaps in the case where the mutation is particularly detrimental.
"But up to 10 percent of the plants' offspring kept reverting to normal."
Although 10% doesn't seem like much it adds up. Let's say this same thing happens on a much grander scale. We'll measure a 90% rate for retaining mutations per generation.
y=.9^x
After 7 generations, we're at less than one half.
After 22 generations, we're at less than one tenth.
On an evolutionary timeframe of many generations...
Even with a more conservative estimate
y=.95^x
After 14 generations, we're at less than one half.
After 45 generations, we're at less than one tenth.
On an evolutionary timeframe of many generations...
Now granted, we don't know what else does this besides arabidopsis, but the possibilities do present some interesting scenarios.
If anything this would seem to be a helpful accessory mechanism biasing evolution more towards beneficial mutations.
The problem is that these are corrective mutations. It's not like these plants are making a new mutation, they're just reverting to an old form. The whole point about correcting mutations is that it decreases biodiversity.
Given that Darwin formulated his theories about evolution with absoloutely no knowledge of Mendelian genetics I fail to see why it should be a nail in evolutions coffin. Certainly the modern synthesis does include a very strong emphasis on genetics, but it is certainly not restricted to Mendelian genetics.
I think the problem is more with your view of the importance of Mendelian genetics in evolution than with the impact these findings will actually have.
Still, I would think that Mendel would be more trustworthy than Darwin. The whole point of this is not to disprove evolution (everytime I even suggest not treating evolution as a "holy grail," it's somehow mysteriously equated with disproving evolution). My second point is more philosophical than scientific (the first was meant to have the scientific leaning). Regardless of whatever link may or may not exist between Mendel and Darwin, if you trust Mendel more than Darwin, then given what happened here, if you can't trust Mendel as much, then how much do you trust Darwin? You think you know it all and then BOOM...this happens.
edit: As a side note, your link to the original paper doesn't seem to be working.
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-24-2005 11:57 AM
This message has been edited by commike37, 03-24-2005 12:23 PM

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6048 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 15 of 65 (194034)
03-24-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taqless
03-24-2005 11:46 AM


some quick answers
1. So, not just their pet gene?
No, another half-a-dozen loci they genotyped also reverted.
However, the reversion only occurred when their pet gene (hth) was homozygous mutant.
2. Did they arrive at this homozygous recessive gene through crossing (well, I guess so since transposons typically land in more than one place as I recall)?
Yes, and from self-fertilization of hth homozygous mutants to rule out issues of accidental pollen contamination.
3. Is it possible it "mutated" back to the original sequence?
Unlikely based on the paper (assuming you mean "randomly mutated"):
- The reversion frequency (10%) was much higher than random mutation would allow.
- Non-revertant random mutations did not appear in the sequenced alleles above expected background.
- Perhaps most importantly - the revertants always had the same exact polymorphisms that were present in their "grandparents'", but not "parents'", genome.

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