Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 123 (193096)
03-21-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-21-2005 10:19 AM


You were told that Bill was your Uncle. Did you believe he was your Uncle because you met him and got to know him or because someone told you he was your Uncle?
Once you were told he was not your Uncle, did you still believe he was your Uncle or did you understand the facts and why he was not a real Uncle?
Of course your example with Bill is very different from God.
Imagine that you are taken to a homestead and you are told it is Uncle Bill's. There was no Uncle Bill there. You spent time in the house and on the farm. Your parents tell you stories of Uncle Bill, but there are no photos of Uncle Bill in the house and Uncle Bill never shows up.
You believed Uncle Bill was real because your parents told you he was.
So during your stay, did you really meet Uncle Bill and get to know him?
Later your parents tell you that there really isn't an Uncle Bill and that wasn't his house.
Do you believe what your parents tell you or do you investigate?
If you investigate and find out that you have no Uncle Bill in your family tree, do you continue to believe you have an Uncle Bill?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-21-2005 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 123 (193626)
03-23-2005 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Apples and Oranges
If you truly want to understand "ex-believer" then you need a better analogy.
As I showed you, your example is not the same.
quote:
It would be as if I once went to visit my Uncle Bill in New York City when I was 7.
You are talking of Uncle Bill, a physical being that you can see and your parents could also see at the same time. You could all point to Uncle Bill and describe exactly what he is wearing, color of his hair, color of his eyes, etc.
quote:
In my example, I believed because I experienced.
You can't experience the title of Uncle. The title has nothing to do with wether you can get to know the person or not.
quote:
What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced.
What did you experience exactly?
quote:
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you?
Remember you are trying to understand "ex-believer", which means they once believed.
I was a believer. There was no discomfort in believing and it wasn't impossible to believe. In my belief I gave God complete control over my life. I understood the Bible as it was presented to me. Then I got involved in a church that was big on Bible study. I read and studied and saw the reality of the Christian Bible.
I don't think you understand who "ex-believers" no longer believe (at least this one anyway). I no longer believe in the tenets of Christianity, which is all I ever knew of God. If God does exist outside of the pages of the Bible, then he will have to make himself known to me on his own.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 25 of 123 (193691)
03-23-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
03-23-2005 10:02 AM


Real Answers
quote:
I appreciates everyones feedback. I don't really feel up for this discussion this morning...maybe later. It was a good one, though. We all got our points out, I believe.
I'd appreciate it if you would seriously answer my questions when you feel better.
quote:
Unless the title is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in which case the person has the power and the ability to draw all unto Himself.
The title still has nothing to do with meeting or experiencing God.
quote:
I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him.
Stick with your OP.
Detail your experience in meeting God.
The inability of Christians to answer questions such as mine seriously and completely also strengthens an ex-believers position.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 10:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 35 of 123 (193776)
03-23-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
03-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
quote:
Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?
I grew up in the Christian Church. If my lifestyle is already Christian, how much can it change after accepting Christ?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 5:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 123 (193961)
03-24-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
03-23-2005 10:39 PM


Tough Questions
I don't feel Phat truly wanted to understand the ex-believer.
He would prefer that I assume that for over 40 years I didn't "believe" correctly, which actually shows that Christianity is unable to teach people how to "meet" God consistently. They have no way to certify that one has truly and irreversibly met God.
He has spent most of this thread asserting that he has truly met God and that we are to believe him (Phatboy), but he refuses to believe that former believers felt they had met God also.
Unfortunately he is unable to tell any of us the details of meeting God or how we can actually meet his God the same way he did and know that we did it right.
This would be a very interesting discussion if he would take it seriously.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 03-23-2005 10:39 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-24-2005 9:10 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 123 (194050)
03-24-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nator
03-24-2005 9:10 AM


Believing Is Seeing
As the little elf on "The Santa Clause" said, "Seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing."
Unfortunately they are unable to tell us what precisely to believe to replicate the experience for ourselves.
Instead of drawing us back, they strengthen our disbelief in their tenets.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-24-2005 9:10 AM nator has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 123 (196649)
04-04-2005 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
03-30-2005 7:10 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God
quote:
Mike and others say they have met Jesus. But that later they decided he was not who he claimed to be. They agree they met the individual in question. They no longer believe he is GOD.
The same goes for God himself.
I also knew God and Jesus, prayed to them and received wisdom and guidance.
Phatboy is essentially telling us that our experiences were false since we are now able to not believe in God or Jesus.
Unfortunately he is unable to describe his experience in the actual meeting of God so that I or others can see if our experiences were truly false or not.
Phatboy writes:
The emotional change and resulting satisfaction could be a big part of the reason why.
He states an emotional change as possible proof that he met God. I can also claim an emotional change and feeling of satisfaction during my Christianity. If I now disbelieve, was that a false response?
Because Christians claim that "knowing" God or Jesus is an internal personal experience, they are unable to give a description of meeting God that is discernable from any other emotional experience.
As long as we believed in God/Jesus we knew we had met God, just as Phatboy does.
For Phatboy to assert
quote:
I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!
he needs to show that his "meeting" with God was different than ours. He hasn't been able to do that yet.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 03-30-2005 7:10 AM jar has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 123 (197218)
04-06-2005 10:16 AM


Bump for Details
I would still like Phatboy to be more specific in how to recognize a actual meeting with God as opposed to one that is just an emotional response to a situation or being duped by Satan.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024