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Author Topic:   Blood in dino bones
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 16 of 138 (194375)
03-25-2005 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by simple
03-24-2005 10:10 PM


Photos (including SEM shots) and comments at Tyrannosaur morsels.
Caption: Exploded T. rex vessel showing small round microstructures partially embedded in internal vessel walls.
PZ quotes from the article and then comments:
quote:
quote:
we demonstrate the retention of pliable soft-tissue blood vessels with contents that are capable of being liberated from the bone matrix, while still retaining their flexibility, resilience, original hollow nature, and three-dimensionality. Additionally, we can isolate three-dimensional osteocytes with internal cellular contents and intact, supple filipodia that float freely in solution. This T. rex also contains flexible and fibrillar bone matrices that retain elasticity. The unusual preservation of the originally organic matrix may be due in part to the dense mineralization of dinosaur bone, because a certain portion of the organic matrix within extant bone is intracrystalline and therefore extremely resistant to degradation. These factors, combined with as yet undetermined geochemical and environmental factors, presumably also contribute to the preservation of soft-tissue vessels. Because they have not been embedded or subjected to other chemical treatments, the cells and vessels are capable of being analyzed further for the persistence of molecular or other chemical information.
So, basically, these cells were entombed in a thick mineral sarcophagus, protected from bacteria and other external insults. There have to have been other factors at playcells are full of enzymes that trigger a very thorough self-destruct sequence at deathso I'm definitely looking forward to the molecular analysis. Even if their form was preserved, I expect these cells to be denatured monomer soup on the inside.
More analysis expected Real Soon Now at The Panda's Thumb, which appears to be down right now.

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 Message 1 by simple, posted 03-24-2005 10:10 PM simple has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 17 of 138 (194376)
03-25-2005 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by simple
03-25-2005 3:58 AM


Re: fresh blood
There is no serious question about the age of the fossils
Based on what? decay rates?
Decay rates, stratigraphy, fossil correlations, ...
It's all one big, connected, consistent web of evidence. Including lots of evidence that decay rates haven't changed. Message 53:
Observations used to establish the constancy of decay rates, include (but are not limited to):
  • Observations of nuclear reactions in distant stars and distant galaxies (for which the reactions took place thousands or millions of years ago).
  • Inferences about nuclear processes in the very early universe before galaxy formation.
  • Cross checking of dates against other non-radiometric dating methods.
  • Cross checking of radically different radiometric methods.
  • Study of residues from the Oklo natural nuclear reactor, active nearly two billion years ago.
  • Theory of quantum mechanics, which is itself one of the most precisely studied and tested models in physics. Radioactive decay is a process that is well understood. We know a great deal about the relevant forces and the structure of atoms, and how and why they decay. In fact, I would say radioactive decay is substantially better understood than gravity. This illustrates the principal that confidence in scientific models is related also to how well the underlying principals are understood.
  • Testing of a range of conditions in which decay might vary. If decay rates have varied, then can we reproduce the conditions under which this occurs? In some cases, yes; and none of them make any difference to dating techniques.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 3:58 AM simple has replied

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 138 (194448)
03-25-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Sylas
03-25-2005 4:54 AM


easter eggs with a golden yoke!
quote:
Sure; it would be great to find more fossils like this, and that will require looking inside. By I don't think anyone, Jack Horner included, expects preservation detail such as reported in Science to be common.
Granted. Of course they didn't expect it in this one either. And you know human nature, everyone loves an easter egg hunt, even if sometimes they do make a mess! Besides, it could be worth some money, in a short while, and gold fever is another element of human nature that may have some digging and cracking where maybe some think they should not!
Already there is talk about how a total rethink about fossilization is now needed! On the surface, what seems to make more sense with blood and soft tissue tens of millions of years old? Or dinosaurs that walked with men!?

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 138 (194449)
03-25-2005 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by JonF
03-25-2005 7:26 AM


Re: fresh blood
quote:
Including lots of evidence that decay rates haven't changed.
I don't think they have. I think the physical process of decay itself was not the same process at all before the fall. It was recorded to have been one of regeneration, leading to eternal life, rather than decay and death. As I see it, there is only a several thousand year window of time, when the physical only decay process exists at all. Before death entered the world, and after the new heavens are revealed, the present processes are non existant. But now, sure they exist, and are constant. Of course this aspect needs the evidence of the bible, which is not accepted at the moment as we know by science. But neither do I accept unprovable assertions of belief that there was no spiritual effect that resulted in a different process altogether! So not much on that point to debate about.
At least the 'bleeding dino' ought to echo a warning that something is rotten in Denmark, with the old age philosopies!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 138 (194451)
03-25-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by simple
03-25-2005 1:18 PM


Re: easter eggs with a golden yoke!
Already there is talk about how a total rethink about fossilization is now needed!
Oh yeah? By who?
On the surface, what seems to make more sense with blood and soft tissue tens of millions of years old? Or dinosaurs that walked with men!?
Not even close. The former by a long, long, long,long, long, long shot.
But even if there were dinosaurs living today, what would that have to do with either Evolution (which is a fact) or the TOE?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 1:18 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 138 (194455)
03-25-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
03-25-2005 7:18 AM


quote:
The unusual preservation of the originally organic matrix may be due in part to the dense mineralization of dinosaur bone, because a certain portion of the organic matrix within extant bone is intracrystalline and therefore extremely resistant to degradation. These factors, combined with as yet undetermined geochemical and environmental factors, presumably also contribute to the preservation of soft-tissue vessels.
Isn't it a bit early to call it "originally organic matrix "?
http://us.news2.yimg.com/...303241932.t_rex_tissue_wx103.jpg
quote:
There have to have been other factors at playcells are full of enzymes that trigger a very thorough self-destruct sequence at death
Other factors, like it wasn't millions of years old after all, I think.

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 22 of 138 (194466)
03-25-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by simple
03-25-2005 1:51 PM


Isn't it a bit early to call it "originally organic matrix "?
Are you claiming it was originally inorganic?
quote:
There have to have been other factors at playcells are full of enzymes that trigger a very thorough self-destruct sequence at death
Other factors, like it wasn't millions of years old after all, I think.
Unless death was caused or accompanied by a drastic change in temperature or salinity, in which case those enzymes would be rendered non-functional.

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 138 (194470)
03-25-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by pink sasquatch
03-25-2005 2:39 PM


"Are you claiming it was originally inorganic?"
No. I was thinking it was still organic, or recently was anyhow. The term matrix sounded unreal, and as if the dino was so long ago and far away, instead of still bloody, so to speak.
quote:
Unless death was caused or accompanied by a drastic change in temperature or salinity, in which case those enzymes would be rendered non-functional.
But do these flood year type conditions you speak of really have the capability to preserve blood and soft tissue 70 million yeras? If so, how do we know that?

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 138 (194471)
03-25-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-25-2005 1:35 PM


Re: easter eggs with a golden yoke!
"This may not be fossilisation as we know it, of large macrostructures, but fossilisation at a molecular level," BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | T. rex fossil has 'soft tissues'
"The finding certainly shows fossilization does not proceed as science had assumed, Schweitzer said" Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines
That's all I could find in a hurry on that.
quote:
But even if there were dinosaurs living today, what would that have to do with either Evolution (which is a fact) or the TOE?
Seems to me, evos say dinosaurs lived in the Jurassic, and such long ago periods, and this evolved from that, etc, etc. If one was running around now, the evolving part might be taken with a grain of salt! Ha.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 138 (194474)
03-25-2005 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by simple
03-25-2005 3:26 PM


Re: easter eggs with a golden yoke!
Seems to me, evos say dinosaurs lived in the Jurassic, and such long ago periods, and this evolved from that, etc, etc.
Well, Yup! That much is fact.
If one was running around now, the evolving part might be taken with a grain of salt! Ha.
Why?
Were there crocodiles at the time of the dinosaurs?
Why would a living dino be ANY problem for either Evolution or the TOE?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 3:26 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 8:54 PM jar has replied
 Message 31 by MangyTiger, posted 03-25-2005 10:01 PM jar has replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 138 (194496)
03-25-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Sylas
03-25-2005 2:34 AM


Re: Read the article more closely...
Thanks for the citation.
Someone else had a link to a page that had some of the images from the paper, but I'll try to post all of them here. Some of the ones not posted on that website are pretty compelling even to a layman. Some of the images jump right out at you screaming "I'm a cell!"
Comparison of T. rex objects (left) with ostrich cells (right).
Caption.
Fig. 4. Cellular features associated with T. rex and ostrich tissues. (A) Fragment of demineralized cortical bone from T. rex, showing parallel-oriented fibers and cell-like microstructures among the fibers. The inset is a higher magnification of one of the microstructures seen embedded in the fibrous material. (B) Demineralized and stained (3) ostrich cortical bone, showing fibrillar, parallel-oriented collagen matrix with osteocytes embedded among the fibers. The inset shows a higher magnification of one of the osteocytes. Both inset views show elongate bodies with multiple projections arising from the external surface consistent with filipodia. (C) Isolated microstructure from T. rex after fixation. In addition to the multiple filipodial-like projections, internal contents can be seen. The inset shows a second structure with long filipodia and an internal transparent nucleus-like structure. (D) Fixed ostrich osteocyte; inset, ostrich osteocyte fixed and stained for better visualization. Internal contents are discernible, and filipodia can be seen extending in multiple planes from the cell surface. (E and F) SEM images of aldehyde-fixed (3) microstructures isolated from T. rex cortical bone tissues. Scale bars in (A) and (B), 50 m; in (C) and (D), 20 m; in (E), 10 m; in (F), 1 m.
Caption.Fig. 3. SEM images of aldehyde-fixed vessels. (A) Isolated vessel from T. rex. (B) Vesselisolated from extant ostrich after demineralization and collagenase digestion (3). (C) Vesselfrom T. rex, showing internal contents and hollow character. (D) Exploded T. rex vessel showing small round microstructures partially embedded in internal vessel walls. (E) Highermagnification of a portion of T. rex vessel wall, showing hypothesized endothelial nuclei (EN). (F) Similar structures visible on fixed ostrich vessel. Striations are seen in both (E) and (F) that may represent endothelial cell junctions or alternatively may be artifacts of the fixation/dehydration process. Scale bars in (A) and (B), 40 m; in (C) and (D), 10 m; in (E) and (F), 1 m.
Caption.Fig. 2. Demineralization of cortical bone reveals the presence of soft-tissue structures. (A) Partial demineralization of a fragment of T. rex cortical bone shows an emerging network of vascular canals, some of which are bifurcated (arrows). All are aligned in parallel, consistent with Haversian canals in cortical bone. Small fenestrae (marked F) may indicate invaginations for communicating Volkmann's canals. (B) A second fragment of T. rex cortical bone illustrates transparent vessels (arrows) arising from bone matrix in solution. (C) Complete demineralization reveals transparent flexible vessels in what remains of the cortical bone matrix, represented by a brown amorphous substance (marked M). (D) Ostrich vessel after demineralization of cortical bone and subsequent digestion of fibrous collagenous matrix. Transparent vessels branch and remain associated with small regions of undigested bone matrix, seen here as amorphous, white fibrous material (marked M). Scale bars in (A) to (D), 0.5 mm. (E) Higher magnification of dinosaur vessels shows branching pattern (arrows) and internal contents. Vascular structure is not consistent with fungal hyphae (no septae, and branching pattern is not consistent with fungal morphology) or plant (no cell walls visible, and again branching pattern is not consistent). Round red microstructures within the vessels are clearly visible. (F) T. rex vessel fragment, containing microstructures consistent in size and shape with those seen in the ostrich vessel in (H). (G) Second fragment of dinosaur vessel. Air/fluid interfaces, represented by dark menisci, illustrate the hollow nature of vessels. Microstructure is visible within the vessel. (H) Ostrich vessel digested from demineralized cortical bone. Red blood cells can be seen inside the branching vessel. (I) T. rex vessel fragment showing detail of branching pattern and structures morphologically consistent with endothelial cell nuclei (arrows) in vessel wall. (J) Ostrich blood vessel liberated from demineralized bone after treatment with collagenase shows branching pattern and clearly visible endothelial nuclei. Scale bars in (E) to (J), 50 m. (F), (I), and (J) were subjected to aldehyde fixation (3). The remaining vessels are unfixed.
Caption.Fig. 1. Demineralized fragments of endosteally derived tissues lining the marrow cavity of the T. rex femur. (A) The demineralized fragment is flexible and resilient and, when stretched (arrow), returns to its original shape. (B) Demineralized bone in (A) after air drying. The overall structural and functional characteristics remain after dehydration. (C) Regions of demineralized bone show fibrous character (arrows). Scale bars, 0.5 mm.
The suplemental info is in PDF format, but it has some really nice images also, as well as more supporting data.
edit: pdf's of The Article and Supplemental
This message has been edited by gnojek, 03-25-2005 06:06 PM

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gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 138 (194502)
03-25-2005 6:20 PM


Sorry for multiple posts, but reading the supplemental answers and earlier issue raised regarding whether this is the first time or only time this sort of thing has been seen.
Quoting pg. 6 - "3. Osteocytes. Preservation of small microstructures consistent with osteocytes have been recovered from three dinosaurs in addition to MOR 1125."
Oh, and someone commented on "matrix" sounding unreal, whatever that means. People refer to a material in which other materials are merely embedded as a matrix. If you found a piece of dirty sand and you identified some inclusions as being iron or something, you'd say that it was iron particles in a silica matrix. Or the little pieces of glitter in a ball of toy slime are in the matrix of the slime.
Figure S2 is blowing my mind, especially the fact that it is taking up common stains normally used in "fresh" samples.

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 138 (194542)
03-25-2005 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
03-25-2005 3:52 PM


Re: easter eggs with a golden yoke!
quote:
Seems to me, evos say dinosaurs lived in the Jurassic, and such long ago periods, and this evolved from that, etc, etc.
Well, Yup! That much is fact.
That they say it, yes, but just between monkeys, here, I don't really buy it.
quote:
Why would a living dino be ANY problem for either Evolution or the TOE?
Well, I don't know. I have had some evos get snitty when some creationist suggested that men had encountered and seen, and lived with dinosaurs? Or that they thought that both men and dino footprints were found together, or some of their claims like that. I have heard some say they actually thought dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago. But if you say dinos walking around right now is fine with TOE, fine. It's fine with me as well, since I don't believe in the old ages! A little tissue and blood from dinos turns up, and evos seem to get ready to head for safer ground?

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 03-25-2005 3:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 138 (194544)
03-25-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by simple
03-25-2005 8:54 PM


Re: easter eggs with a golden yoke!
Simple, you did not answer the question.
Why would a living dinosaur be a problem for the Theory of Evolution?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 8:54 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by simple, posted 03-25-2005 9:41 PM jar has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 138 (194548)
03-25-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
03-25-2005 9:23 PM


jar's little phrases
quote:
Why would a living dinosaur be a problem for the Theory of Evolution?
What I said was that blood and soft tissue would seem to fit a young earth scenario better than one where they died out 70 million years ago! Now if you want to warp it over to what evolution says about it, or whatever, be my guest, I could use a laugh! You raise the point, you're an evo, answer it yourself, or flush it for all I care.
You are locked into the great age of the dinosaur, because you believe the dating methods used on the rock surrounding it. So what would I care if you felt cool about a dino running around new dehli today or not? This one evo dates put at I think it was 70 million years. Deal with the issue at hand, and if you have a point to raise, don't expect me to explain the silly theory in intimate detail to you! I told you my thoughts on your little would be trick question! If you don't like them apples. then take this little phras for your answer. I don't know. Ha, add this little phrase to it. I don't care!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-25-2005 10:46 PM simple has replied
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