A chance to be a pro-science activist!

This is more serious than the other threads so I'm not going to be sarcastic with you here... Congratulations on your abilities. This does show some merit. However you need to keep in mind that brilliance does not make one less susceptible nor impervious to propaganda. Propaganda attacks emotions or other reactionary elements and allows us to skip by logic and evidence.Brilliant people have been suckered right down through the ages, and I know three people personally who were brilliant and yet somehow got suckered by ID theory.I am not saying that you were a sucker, or that anyone that believes in it must be a sucker. Personally I do believe that those who are not, have simply not fully explored ID, including its metaphysical expectations regarding how science needs to operate in the future.There are possibilities for ID to have some utility, and I even opened a thread a long time ago to explore that issue. Guess what? No ID theorists showed up and instead a bunch of us evos batted around some ideas. This did not bode well for ID confidence in their own theory.I also opened a thread (which CK pointed to) asking for ID theorists to present any new research developed by anyone within ID. It has also remained silent as a tomb.I realize Ned and Jar have set up a new thread, but if you specifically have info on research (nothing pre 2000) which ID theorists have conducted, I hope you will show up in that thread.I am open to the possibility that ID can do something, but I have yet to see anything actually done. I am also disturbed by some of its proponents who appear to be demanding modern science be revoked in order that ID's preliminary theories can be called scientific findings. That does tend to lend an impression that ID is not actually a science, or has not gotten anywhere scientifically.However I am open to discussion and look forward to something interesting from an actual ID theorists (many so far have resorted to creationism).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I've been to public schools. What machine?Are you seriously suggesting that a science teacher telling students that the current best scientific model of species diversity is the ToE is some wort of lie? Propaganda?If the ToE is not the best current model, what is?On the flip side, what I was talking about, is some very smart people who ended up embracing ID theory as "truth", based on false information which prayed upon their emotions and desires and made them miss some very massive holes in logic and evidence. If this is not the perfect example I am talking about, I don't know how it can get much clearer.Science is not about how things should be, or you want them to be, or even what you think will end up being the underlying metaphysical "truth". Science is about building models of natural phenomena using the most accurate (encompassing) descriptions of how evidence fits together.If you son't want to be a pawn in the animal kingdom, don't be one. That doesn't mean you have to reject that the best model we have is the ToE.Personally I'd rather be a pawn in the animal kingdom, than a pawn for a bunch of ignorant rich guys trying to take my money by telling me comfortable lies.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You are correct. Everyone should question their beliefs and models. Ahem... Moses commited genocide, the Jews commited genocide, the Xians commited genocide, the Muslims have to some extent attempted genocidal purges. The current "culture war" is a concept developed by and propagated by fundementalist Xians, because as they put it the Xian worldview is in danger (in competition with others) and Xians must fight to stay on top of other beliefs.The ToE doesn't say anything about social "darwinism" which is made be people quite ignorant of what the ToE is about. Most of evolution appears to be driven by environmental changes, or entities moving into new environments, not how best to kill and dominate each other. It just so happens that the ranks of better adapted creatures will thrive.One might note that the rabbit's introduction to Australia swamped it with rabbits. They weren't the killer rabbits from Monty Python's Holy Grail, they just had a wide open niche.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Because it would be oppressive, and worse than that... boring as hell.Diversity of opinion and belief is important. We need crackpots and at least a little bit of delusional and outside the box thinking, just as much as the rigid stick to logic and evidence (and assume that is all there is) types.The key is to make sure there is a government which allows many diverse and conflicting belief systems to live in harmony.That is why a secular government is the best system developed so far. The Romans and Greeks allowed for many, but still an imposition of their own beliefs on top of others. It can work, but its still messy. The founding fathers were quite brilliant in instituting secular gov't.Many mistake secularism in gov't for atheism. It is more like agnosticism or simply "I won't touch that with a ten foot pole"-ism.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Ahem... thank you for proving what I just said. Evolutionary theory does not say humans are in a state of materialistic competition that cannot be overcome, Xians do.Although I suppose I'd point out there was no materialistic reason the genocides of Moses, and later Xians and Muslims. Neither is there a materialistic competitive reason for the current "culture war" the fundamentalist Xians have begun and continue to propagate. All of that was ideological non materialistic competition.The genocide commited at Canaan was material and ideologically driven. I honestly don't know what this means. What does it mean to apply the ToE to humans?Look again at Genesis and the fall and the aftermath of the fall... that's a mess humans need to be a part of?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Uhhhhh... You are responding after a break so maybe you forgot what our little back and forth was about.If you follow the thread back up you will find that it was my point that ideology was the driving force of Xian and Jewish "bible-based" genocides. You responded by saying they had a material basis like other genocides, mainly competition for resources/power/survival. My reply was suggesting that in addition to any material motives (which you were suggesting) Canaan most certainly was ideologically driven.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)