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Author Topic:   The Faith "Great Debate" sedimentation and erosion topic
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 31 of 45 (193971)
03-24-2005 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
03-24-2005 2:59 AM


Re: Suggestion for Jazzns
Faith writes:
Unfortunately the picture isn't available to me, either because my computer isn't powerful enough or because the website shut it down, which could be the case as when I click on "enlarge" it says it's unavailable.
Hmmm. I wonder if it could be the file's size that's a problem. Might your ISP or your browser be filtering picture's larger than a certain limit. That picture's around 125K.
Here's a smaller one of about 25K that's sort of similar:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 03-24-2005 2:59 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-24-2005 8:05 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 33 by JonF, posted 03-24-2005 9:43 AM Percy has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 45 (193974)
03-24-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
03-24-2005 7:38 AM


Re: Suggestion for Jazzns
Nah! I have the same problem with all the the browsers. It gives a dns error and says that the domain is parked. And I'm on a fair sized pipe.
AbE
If you get a chance where I can pick your brain, IM me please.
thanks.
This message has been edited by jar, 03-24-2005 07:06 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 AM Percy has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 33 of 45 (194008)
03-24-2005 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
03-24-2005 7:38 AM


Re: Suggestion for Jazzns
I wonder if it could be the file's size that's a problem. Might your ISP or your browser be filtering picture's larger than a certain limit. That picture's around 125K.
No, the problem is that it was there but is no more. Google image search picks up this thumbnail:
but the link leads to the same "parked' message that everyone else is getting.
We could try:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 AM Percy has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 45 (194055)
03-24-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
03-23-2005 10:44 PM


Re: Suggestion for Jazzns
When Faith talks about erosion leaving a flat surface, I wonder if she might be thinking about uneven rates of erosion due to different hardnesses of the material being eroded. For example, here's a photo from Monument Park in Arizona:
Now the picture is coming through. Yes I do think about rates of erosion having to do with different hardnesses. The stepped shape of the walls of the Grand Canyon show this kind of differential erosion, probably also the pattern of runoff from the top of the canyon, taking more from the top layers than the lower layers.
The erosion within the layers of the canyon is supposed to have occurred upon an already pretty flat surface, as these surfaces were supposedly built up over great periods of time, most of them underwater where they would have been quite horizontal. I've been thinking of erosion UPON a flat table-like surface over the millions of years supposed for any given layer -- or whatever relatively shorter period (half a million being conservative?) that layer is thought to have been out of water. Seems to me rivulets would have starting cutting into the surface and eventually spread out taking a lot of material with it over huge periods of time, making short order of the flat table-like appearance. It would have dumped sediments moved from it somewhere else in no particular configuration, the whole thing being an incoherent mess at the end of the supposed millions of years.
She might be wondering why the layers of the Grand Canyon have no buried structures like this that were first eroded into this uneven shape, then covered over again by deposition.
I'm sure it's an interesting story. What the monuments look like to me is islands of some kind of layering, left after water removed everything in the surrounding area. The tops look like something that was pushed upward, then the whole thing eroded first by more water than that which cut the canyon, as it left the surrounding area denuded and flat for miles in all directions, then eroded by normal weathering since then.
So what's the real story?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2005 3:42 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 45 (194096)
03-24-2005 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
03-24-2005 1:52 PM


Seems to me rivulets would have starting cutting into the surface and eventually spread out taking a lot of material with it over huge periods of time, making short order of the flat table-like appearance.
Water follows the lowest path avaliable, so wouldn't the waters concentrate into the first cutting? It seems to me that what you'd wind up with is a flat table with a big channel carved out, following the meanders of the rivulet that began it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 03-24-2005 1:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 03-24-2005 6:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 45 (194202)
03-24-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
03-24-2005 3:42 PM


Rivulets etc.
Seems to me rivulets would have starting cutting into the surface and eventually spread out taking a lot of material with it over huge periods of time, making short order of the flat table-like appearance.
======
Water follows the lowest path avaliable, so wouldn't the waters concentrate into the first cutting? It seems to me that what you'd wind up with is a flat table with a big channel carved out, following the meanders of the rivulet that began it.
That crossed my mind but I figured water is coming at this area from many directions, including rain from above, and this is a LARGE area after all, acres at the very least. If one rivulet could get started across a flat surface others also would, many of them, and then of course eventually some grooves will get deepened and some channels become quite deep and so on. The layer won't be perfectly flat either and the water will head for the lower areas. But remember, this is happening over how many years? ONE layer of sediment how deep? I've wondered if it would be possible to set up an experiment by spreading out flat wet clay in a field and letting it harden a bit and then run water across it or sprinkle water from overhead to see what happens. How does water travel across the Great Salt Lake or other dry bed? It ought to be possible to set up smaller versions on the kitchen table and come to some kind of conclusion even. I'm sure some scientists have already conducted these kinds of experiments. We should probably ask them.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-24-2005 06:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2005 3:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 37 of 45 (194218)
03-24-2005 7:25 PM


Everyone does realize that this is not a debate forum per se?
This thread was designed to discuss the possible GD with Faith and an opponent. It seems that Faith is saying she isn't sure she wants to participate in the GD but than continues in this thread debating the same topic.
Can we keep this thread for discussion of the GD and if Faith really wants to discuss geological issues it should be happening in the GD or at the very least in a geology thread.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 45 (194219)
03-24-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminAsgara
03-24-2005 7:25 PM


Everyone does realize that this is not a debate forum per se?
This thread was designed to discuss the possible GD with Faith and an opponent.
It seems that Faith is saying she isn't sure she wants to participate in the GD but than continues in this thread debating the same topic.
It was my understanding that when Jar and I did our GD, that was to be the beginning of a well structured debate, which it was, so as to fix the hodpodge stuff that was called GD before that debate. Imo, it's not a good idea to have more than two people debating in the GD. Why? because you're pitting one mind against several minds. This is unbalanced and unfair, imo to the one who is obliged to refute a pack who're bitin the bit to contribute their two bits.
I suggest the GD thread committee not loose the progress made in organizing organized bonafide debates. The trouble with a parallel peanut gallery thread is that the minority debater can't do debate and respond to stuff offered in pg. Peanut gallery, imo should be held off until the debate is finished.
The GD Jar and I did was totally even handed in procedure and nobody could complain afterward that one side or the other had the advantage.
Food for thought.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-24-2005 7:25 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2005 1:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 42 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-25-2005 2:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 45 (194245)
03-24-2005 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
03-24-2005 6:32 PM


Re: Rivulets etc.
That crossed my mind but I figured water is coming at this area from many directions
Well, I think that's a debatable proposition, and certainly one we should be able to confirm from the local geology, but it would depend on the area in question. Just to be sure are we still talking about the Grand Canyon? Because the only source of water I'm aware of in that area is the Colorado River, which exhibits exactly the qualities I described.
If one rivulet could get started across a flat surface others also would
They would quickly input into the first rivulet, which would become the main channel of outgoing water, which is exactly the sort of drainage pattern we see in watersheds to this day.
I've wondered if it would be possible to set up an experiment by spreading out flat wet clay in a field and letting it harden a bit and then run water across it or sprinkle water from overhead to see what happens.
That's a great idea; that's an experiment that I performed in 8th grade Earth Science so its quite easy to do. I suggest you do it in a box so you can correct for the lay of the land, and experiment with various configurations of land and lay. It should be quite illuminating. If you had a digital camera you could both easily record the experiment and share it with the rest of us.
I'm sure some scientists have already conducted these kinds of experiments. We should probably ask them.
Absolutely, but I really like the idea of performing it ourselves. Also I would reccommend you view satellite imagery of various watershed areas; its easily found on a google search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 03-24-2005 6:32 PM Faith has not replied

edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 40 of 45 (194250)
03-24-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Nighttrain
03-23-2005 11:52 PM


Re: Suggestion for Jazzns
Hi, Edge, care to clear up a question for me? I want to know the difference betwixt a mesa and a butte. Most geo sites I consulted seemed to regard the two as alternatives.One explanation that I read said you could graze a cow on a mesa whereas you can feed a herd of cows on a butte. Is that close?
Another question for the linquists, I suppose. How about personal preference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Nighttrain, posted 03-23-2005 11:52 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 45 (194314)
03-25-2005 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
03-24-2005 7:38 PM


Bump.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 42 of 45 (194328)
03-25-2005 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
03-24-2005 7:38 PM


Yes, model any new "Great Debates" like the Jar/Buz one
Buz, I think I am in full agreement with you (see my message 29).
The current form of the proposed "GD" topic is a mess. It was moved from another forum (not something I personally would have done). Now, Jazzns had tacked a new message on the end. Essentially, we are trying to start a new "one on one" "GD" from that point.
Faith, however, currently doesn't seem to mind being "piled on".
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 03-24-2005 7:38 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2005 8:30 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 45 (194539)
03-25-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Adminnemooseus
03-25-2005 2:10 AM


Re: Yes, model any new "Great Debates" like the Jar/Buz one
Buz, I think I am in full agreement with you (see my message 29).
Mmm, somehow I missed 29. Thanks Moose.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-25-2005 2:10 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Arkansas Banana Boy
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 45 (194621)
03-26-2005 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Adminnemooseus
03-23-2005 11:48 PM


Bump Re: Memo to Faith
Will Faith ever Great Debate? I doubt it as it gives her less room to change subjects and could force a detailed look at creationist theories. Supporting a reasonable model could be harder than taking potshots at another.
ABB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-23-2005 11:48 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 45 of 45 (196323)
04-02-2005 11:08 PM


Closing time
The "Great Debate" is under way.
This topic no longer has any continued purpose.
Adminnemooseus

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