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Author Topic:   IC challenge: Evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle!
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 157 (194793)
03-27-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
03-25-2005 12:00 AM


quote:
Yes, and all those billions in the direction opposite of the direction things observed tend to go, i.e, into chaos.
What things are observed to tend to go into chaos?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2005 12:00 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 10:01 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 157 (194794)
03-27-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
03-25-2005 12:13 AM


Re: ID at work here.
quote:
Yes, ID at work, providing the equipment and setting up the process, creating the capability to accomplish the desired goal of the designer.
Right, and we can see and talk to the designer who wrote the program.
He can also show us the entire code of the program and explain exactly how he did it.
This is positive evidence for this particular designer and exactly how he did what he did.
Now, what is the positive evidence for your uberdesigner that is separate from what is designed? Is there any evidence that does not consist of "We don't have a naturalistic explanation so it must have been the IDer"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2005 12:13 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 10:06 AM nator has replied
 Message 109 by jasonlang, posted 07-19-2005 12:14 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 48 of 157 (194795)
03-27-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
03-25-2005 1:20 AM


Re: Non Living Don't Evolve.
quote:
No spontaneous generation.......no evolution......simple as that.
Nope.
A god or gods could have poofed the first replicators into existence and this would not falsify one iota of evolutionary theory.
Life could have been seeded here from another planet, either randomly or on purpose by alien life, and this would not falsify one iota of evolutionary theory.
Evolutionary theory is an explanation of what happens to life once it got here.
How life got here is irrelevant to the Theory, just as the source of wind is irrelevant to the study of aerodynamics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2005 1:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 49 of 157 (194797)
03-27-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
03-25-2005 7:36 PM


Re: Hey Mike The Whiz!
quote:
There are so many questions to be answered from the chance-naturalist group.
Don't you mean the Chance plus selection naturalist group?
Because leaving out "selection" would be a gross misrepresentation that I am fairly positive you have been informed of approximately one and a half million times by now.
quote:
What with the fine-tuned universe etc.
So, do we observe the laws of physics changing to accomodate unchanging life, or is it the other way around?
quote:
All the order leads us with the most logical and correct position that there is a designer, according to and agreeing with the principle of parsimony.
OK.
There's a designer.
Show me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 03-25-2005 7:36 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 157 (194800)
03-27-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
03-26-2005 6:29 PM


Re: be careful what you wish for
every instance I know of where intelligence has intentionally interfered with the development of species to get a "designed" result, the purpose has been to make it a "better" food source ...
Yah, I know what you mean, bud. Trouble is with some of the dog breeds, they've got the prices up so high, we're back to chicken and pork.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2005 6:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2005 10:20 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 157 (194802)
03-27-2005 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rrhain
03-27-2005 3:04 AM


Re: Non Living Don't Evolve.
Hi Rrhain. My point in all this was to refute the argument that spontaneous generation was not included in the process of evolution. The arguments of my counterparts in this is as silly as trying to argue that creation was not part of the process of intelligent design.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 03-27-2005 3:04 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 104 by Rrhain, posted 04-02-2005 3:12 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 52 of 157 (194804)
03-27-2005 8:59 AM


This message has been edited by Yaro, 03-27-2005 09:01 AM
This message has been edited by Yaro, 03-27-2005 09:01 AM

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 157 (194806)
03-27-2005 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Ooook!
03-27-2005 5:04 AM


Re: Non Living Don't Evolve. Nor Do Living.
So please can you explain how a bike making factory is anything like a protein making cell. Start with the fact that all of the different parts of the bike have to be made up of the same material, and then go on to explain how the blueprints for the bike (and everything else the factory makes) are stored and copied.
The likelihood of the bike to motorbike is likely equal or better than the likelihood of building a single single functional protein randomly from primordial soup.
The chance of assembling 50 essential amino acids randomly to correct sequence so as to build a single functional "folded" protein would be about 10 to the 65th power or about one in the number of atoms in a galexy according to the following very interesting sight. When you bring up the site, go down about halfway and click on the link regarding mathmatical liklihoods.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8830/abiogenesis.html

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Ooook!, posted 03-27-2005 5:04 AM Ooook! has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 157 (194807)
03-27-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
03-27-2005 7:49 AM


You know them as well as I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 03-27-2005 7:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 157 (194808)
03-27-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
03-27-2005 7:54 AM


Re: ID at work here.
Right, and we can see and talk to the designer who wrote the program.
Off topic, but some of us do.
He can also show us the entire code of the program and explain exactly how he did it.
Get sensible if you want responses.
Now, what is the positive evidence for your uberdesigner that is separate from what is designed? Is there any evidence that does not consist of "We don't have a naturalistic explanation so it must have been the IDer"?
See link in my recent post.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-27-2005 10:07 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 03-27-2005 7:54 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-28-2005 9:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 56 of 157 (194810)
03-27-2005 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
03-27-2005 8:42 AM


Re: be careful what you wish for
LOL, except in S.America ...
and the depressed cat population around (ethnic reference deleted) restaurants ...
it's just a reference to an old science fiction story where it turns out humans are bred for ....

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 8:42 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 157 (194819)
03-27-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by RAZD
03-27-2005 10:20 AM


Re: be careful what you wish for
We better get back to serious topic or admin'll feed us to the lions!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2005 10:20 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 58 of 157 (194847)
03-27-2005 3:55 PM


LOL
I am going to assume that as any part of the bicycle plans ("DNA") are available to chose from and mix parts into new arrangements, I also have access to the "DNA" of other mechanisms as possible things to evolve on a bicycle.
Thus adding a battery powered light to the bicycle to use in the dark is an evolutionary advantage over the plain bicycle.
Adding a generator to the system is a further improvement that is selected for as it extends the operation of the light. (I used to have a bike with a generator built into the front hub for a most efficient system).
Increasing the size of the battery now enables me to use the generator as a motor to assist in peddling in the tough hills, but generate electricity to store in the battery when the goings are easier, an improvement that allows more or bigger hills to be covered.
Increasing the size of the {generator\motor} and the capacity of the storage battery to give stronger and longer power assist on the hills is also selected as having an advantage over the smaller systems until a compromise in size and weight is reached, at which point stasis sets in for a while.
Then I add a small motor to the generator to assist the generation of electricity, allowing the battery to be smaller and still get the same overall result, plus now I need to pedal less to generate the requisite electricity to use in the hilly areas.
Finally I link the motor directly to the drive mechanism to get around energy lost in the various intermediate stages, and allow the {generator\battery} system to atrophy and fall off. The motor continues to grow and take on more and more of the actual task of propulsion.
No biggy eh?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
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 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 8:03 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 88 by Ben!, posted 03-29-2005 4:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 59 of 157 (194849)
03-27-2005 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
03-27-2005 3:55 PM


Re: LOL
I love it! Really concise and includes nice selection of useful and non-useful parts and how their usefulness can change depending on other changes. Neat

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 157 (194866)
03-27-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
03-27-2005 3:55 PM


Re: LOL
You need be highly commended, Razd, for the wonderfully intelligent designing of your bicycle.
How about a lever regulated or even computerized long mainspring coil rigged up somehow inside of front and back wheels around the hubs to somehow wind up when you brake on the hills and elsewhere which you can later, when needed release to add to your needed power in your design?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-27-2005 08:11 PM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2005 3:55 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2005 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 72 by Parasomnium, posted 03-29-2005 6:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
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