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Author Topic:   what is feminism?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 147 (195161)
03-29-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by arachnophilia
03-29-2005 9:09 AM


Then they are stupid and nobody with half a brain or interest in practical application will ever pay much attention to them.
...like I have been saying all along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2005 9:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2005 10:41 AM nator has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 77 of 147 (195167)
03-29-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
03-29-2005 9:56 AM


oh how i wish you were right.
sadly, this seems to be the direction higher "education" seems to be going these days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 9:56 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 10:59 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 147 (195172)
03-29-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by arachnophilia
03-29-2005 10:41 AM


But I repeat, so what?
I liken academic feminism to the art world; great and powerful within their own little realms, but having little impact upon the majority of the real world.
They have made themselves largely irrelevant to most people who aren't in that world.
A big hero of mine is Allan Sokal, who hoaxed a prominent academic journal of social criticism:
brilliant hoax
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-29-2005 11:00 AM

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 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2005 10:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 03-29-2005 11:48 AM nator has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 79 of 147 (195182)
03-29-2005 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
03-29-2005 10:59 AM


epistemic relativism
But I repeat, so what?
I liken academic feminism to the art world; great and powerful within their own little realms, but having little impact upon the majority of the real world.
oh don't get me started on the academic art world. i currently want to strangle my art professor. and then i have to go research a guy who puts carrots up manequin's butts.
although i do see your point, i have one objection. mostly because i have yet to figure out EXACTLY the relationship of the "academic world" and the "real world" and which one is which. which one makes the progress? which one is remembered?
the aforementioned art prof took SERIOUS offense one class when i suggested the reason i was rejected from the recent student art show. i told her i didn't matter to me, because if you look at the history, no great artist is recognized until they're dead, so the scholastic world is always slightly behind the people who are just outside and actually making progress. and thusly i do not take academic rejection as an insult. nor do i regard it any way.
had she not disappeared just then, i would have further argued that postmodern sculpture is basically an extension of dada, which died, what 60 years ago?
A big hero of mine is Allan Sokal, who hoaxed a prominent academic journal of social criticism:
oh yes, that's classic. i think shows exactly how lax the humanities area of the academic world is. this is exactly what has pissed me off to no end about postmodern philosophy and feminism.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 03-29-2005 11:50 AM

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 80 of 147 (195192)
03-29-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by nator
03-29-2005 8:30 AM


no shit. i was simply stating the opposing psition. and frankly either is just as valid as the other. especially considering some of the arguments i've heard about female wasps being male in the rape thread.

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 Message 73 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 8:30 AM nator has not replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 81 of 147 (195194)
03-29-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 12:24 PM


especially considering some of the arguments i've heard about female wasps being male in the rape thread.
lol.

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 Message 80 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 12:24 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 82 of 147 (195196)
03-29-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by nator
03-29-2005 8:34 AM


look. while you may think that academic feminist means has nothing to do with anything, they lead the way in sociological thought apparently. all sociology has been changed by feminist academia. not to mention some stuff being discussed on this very board. cross-gender wasps? i'm NOT the crazy one.
i think it's bullshit, but you can't deny the effect it has on the world. that's like saying because academic science has nothing to do with medicine and therefore doesn't help us any and doesn't matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 8:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 92 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 6:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 83 of 147 (195198)
03-29-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 12:30 PM


I don't know what it's like in the states but in many academic fields most of the work is done at the coalface and directly interacts and influences practice and policy.
It does in Business schools at least.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 12:30 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 84 of 147 (195199)
03-29-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by CK
03-29-2005 12:36 PM


that would be part of my point. i'm not sure of your term coalface but nonetheless, academic feminists are the ones published in academic literature. thus, their position is heard by other academics (and professionals) and sometimes even listened to. their research is what influences (apparently) the psycology of film and thus will eventually entirely invade popular culture in some fashion.

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 Message 83 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:36 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:05 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 147 (195202)
03-29-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 12:42 PM


quote:
that would be part of my point. i'm not sure of your term coalface but nonetheless, academic feminists are the ones published in academic literature. thus, their position is heard by other academics (and professionals) and sometimes even listened to. their research is what influences (apparently) the psycology of film and thus will eventually entirely invade popular culture in some fashion.
What makes you think that academic feminist literaty criticism will eventually invade popular culture to any great extent, especially considering the great divide between the populist movement and the academic world?
Indeed, I think we have seen the populist stripe of feminism having a much, much greater influence upon the general culture comparatively.
It the hard-knock world of popular entertainment, esoteric, incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo navel gazing will be ignored fasster than you can say "Wow, what a cool explosion".
You now seem to be backing WAY off from your original assertion that academic feminism was spreading like a cancer over the land.
Now you say that it will "eventually" entirely invade popular culture.
Do you now agree that it currently has little to no influence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 12:42 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 1:14 PM nator has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 86 of 147 (195204)
03-29-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by nator
03-29-2005 1:05 PM


i think that it does not have immense influence, but i think that it has more than you might expect.
and would you get off this literary criticism train. there's more to academic feminism than looking at old books about white guys and figuring out what it does say about women. it is a complete critique of culture both archaic and modern and how things ought to be. god i can't believe i'm arguing for this crap. but still. every form of study has the right to be respected as having some effect, because they all do. would you say judaic studies or african american studies has so very little impact on popular culture as you claim women's studies has? or is this special in some way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:05 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 147 (195210)
03-29-2005 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 1:14 PM


quote:
i think that it does not have immense influence, but i think that it has more than you might expect.
Well, I've asked to be shown this influence outside of academia, but I don't think I've been shown much of anything.
And anyway, this is, as I beat this dead horse, a very long way from what you originally claimed.
quote:
and would you get off this literary criticism train. there's more to academic feminism than looking at old books about white guys and figuring out what it does say about women. it is a complete critique of culture both archaic and modern and how things ought to be. god i can't believe i'm arguing for this crap.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
quote:
but still. every form of study has the right to be respected as having some effect, because they all do.
But a great effect upon the greater popular culture? Especially an effect with far-reaching, profound or at least noticeable effects on many people's every day lives? Eh, I just don't see it.
quote:
would you say judaic studies or african american studies has so very little impact on popular culture as you claim women's studies has? or is this special in some way?
I think the fact that such areas of study exist is influential, as this implies that the subject is considered worthy of study.
However, any area of study is accepted by the popular culture in direct proportion to it's relevance to everyday people's lives.
I just don't see the current sort of scademic feminism having much impact upon everyday people's lives, since these people tend to write for each other rather than try to work for any real change.
In addition, the humanitues are prone to navel gazing as they do not have to test their ideas against any objective reality or show their usefulness or practicality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 1:14 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 2:38 PM nator has replied
 Message 122 by contracycle, posted 04-01-2005 7:45 AM nator has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 88 of 147 (195225)
03-29-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
03-29-2005 1:28 PM


you want influence? go read that rape thread and the bullshit about a female wasp being "culturally male". i'm not kidding, and *i* didn't say it.
something that you and everyone else needs to notice is that radical ideologies do not tend to transform a culture (especially ours) radically. radical environmentalism has not created a huge and graphic change in our attitudes or reality. we still use fossil fuels and stuff, but there has been a dramatic rise in the number of vegans and institutional recycling programs etc. how has radical feminism affected the culture? there is a popularist movement. did you think that the average woman just came up with this? no. feminism started in academia. the first feminist was actually an academic. and a man at that. his book is subjugation of women. his name? john stuart mill. an economist. not even a historian. how bout that.
oh yes and i love how you so elloquently dismiss art and sociology and history...
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-29-2005 02:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 2:46 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 5:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 91 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-29-2005 5:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 147 (195227)
03-29-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 2:38 PM


So, do you think that Jon Stuart Mill's book is similar to anything written by current academic feminists?

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 147 (195262)
03-29-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 2:38 PM


go read that rape thread and the bullshit about a female wasp being "culturally male".
Masculine, not male. Male is a sex. Masculine is a gender. I realize you didn't understand the argument; that's not really a good reason to call it "bullshit."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 2:38 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:17 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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