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Author Topic:   Who to believe , Ham or Ross?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 223 (195160)
03-29-2005 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-28-2005 10:12 PM


Re: How much agreement?
quote:
1) Because evos are blind to the tons of evidence and misinterpret it.
So, you are therefore saying that the hundreds of thousands of Geologists, Paleontologists, Physicists, Chemists, and Archeologists over the last 200 years or so have ALL been complete idiots by continuing to reject that a worldwide Flood occurred?
I see, you are right because you are right, and they are all wrong because, you know, they are.
I am begining to understand your reasoning here.
quote:
2) In a contest between God's word and Science, God wins.
Excellent, let's have you drink some poison. According to God's word, you should be able to do so without harm.
Oh, and all believers should be able to cure the sick just by touching them. I imagine you have a line around the block of people waiting to be healed by you, since modern medicine is science-based and is therefore trumped by the bible.
Mark
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-28-2005 10:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 223 (195177)
03-29-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
03-29-2005 9:18 AM


Re: How much agreement?
So, does that mean that any book, especially religious books, which present themselves as history are to be believed as literally true and historically accurate?
Oh the logic chopping. Give me an example of what you have in mind and I'll tell you what I think. And I mean an example of something that PRESENTS ITSELF as true history to be taken as true history. Don't just say "Koran" and leave it to me to tell you that it doesn't present itself as a history, but as a compilation of teachings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 9:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:44 AM Faith has replied
 Message 58 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 60 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-29-2005 2:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 48 of 223 (195180)
03-29-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
03-29-2005 11:33 AM


Give me an example of what you have in mind and I'll tell you what I think. And I mean an example of something that PRESENTS ITSELF as true history to be taken as true history.
Lord of the Rings certainly presents itself as a real history. I challenge you to find any indication within the text itself that its supposed to be read as fiction. The fact that they shelve it in "fiction" doesn't count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:01 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 223 (195184)
03-29-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by crashfrog
03-29-2005 11:44 AM


Lord of the Rings certainly presents itself as a real history. I challenge you to find any indication within the text itself that its supposed to be read as fiction. The fact that they shelve it in "fiction" doesn't count.
I thought to myself I wonder if somebody will be stupid enough to try to pass off a piece of historical fiction as an example?. and I answered myself, Nah, these are smart people here, these are people who really want to get to the bottom of things. I was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:05 PM Faith has replied
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 50 of 223 (195185)
03-29-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
03-29-2005 12:01 PM


Well you try and pass the bible off as fact - what's the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:11 PM CK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 223 (195187)
03-29-2005 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by CK
03-29-2005 12:05 PM


Well you try and pass the bible off as fact - what's the difference?
Logic-chopping niggling quibbling frivolous nuisance posts seem to be the standard on this subject at EvC -- and not only this subject I must add.
Everything about the Bible presents itself as fact, every author of every historical book. Those who try to pretend it is really fiction are the fiction-makers.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-29-2005 12:12 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:05 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 59 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 4:19 PM Faith has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 52 of 223 (195193)
03-29-2005 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
03-29-2005 12:11 PM


Every element is true? We never had a creationist explain how Noah and the rest weren't burnt to death during the flood.
What don't you pop over to one of the multiple threads we have on the subject and show us how it is done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:36 PM CK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 223 (195197)
03-29-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CK
03-29-2005 12:25 PM


Every element is true? We never had a creationist explain how Noah and the rest weren't burnt to death during the flood.
That's a nuisance topic if there ever was one. What, some scientistic presupposition suggests that such a flood would have burnt everything up and we're supposed to take seriously what is obviously just another unprovable untestable unfalsifiable unreplicable evo wild guess, and this one not even an intelligent one?
Yes, EVERYTHING in the Bible is true.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-29-2005 12:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:25 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 56 by LinearAq, posted 03-29-2005 1:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 54 of 223 (195201)
03-29-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
03-29-2005 12:36 PM


quote:
What, some scientistic presupposition suggests that such a flood would have burnt everything up and we're supposed to take seriously what is obviously just another unprovable untestable unfalsifiable unreplicable evo wild guess, and this one not even an intelligent one?
em..no..basic physics tells us that the flood described in the bible would have flashfried everything on the planet. Before you start with the namecalling -you may want to search the site and see how poorly previous creationists fared when trying to overcome the basic physics involved in this one....
Unless the flood didn't occur as stated in the bible?
Did the flood happen just as it states in the bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 1:11 PM CK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 223 (195203)
03-29-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by CK
03-29-2005 12:52 PM


Sure "basic physics," as calculated by fallen human minds, and extrapolated by fallen human minds back to a time none of them witnessed, and announced dogmatically by fallen human minds to be the Absolute Truth about What Would Have Happened, the same fallen human minds who ignore the only actual witness testimony to the actual event that we have. Absolutely NO interest in such a silly idea, thanks anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 12:52 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by CK, posted 03-29-2005 1:44 PM Faith has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 56 of 223 (195205)
03-29-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
03-29-2005 12:36 PM


Unprovable and Untestable
Faith writes:
What, some scientistic presupposition suggests that such a flood would have burnt everything up and we're supposed to take seriously what is obviously just another unprovable untestable unfalsifiable unreplicable evo wild guess, and this one not even an intelligent one?
What is it about the Charles' statement that makes it unprovable or untestable? Can the effects of that much water falling from the firmament, in such a short period of time, be calculated from what we know of thermodynamics now? Perhaps it HAS been calculated.
Faith additionally writes:
Yes, EVERYTHING in the Bible is true.
Even Matt 21:7? Jesus the acrobat, riding on 2 donkeys at once. Or maybe He jumped from one to the other. I have yet to see a translation of the Bible that doesn't have Him riding both the female donkey and her colt.
In Mark 11:5-7, Jesus' followers only bring the colt and He only rides the colt.
Luke 19:32-35 shows Him only riding the colt.
In John 12:14, Jesus finds the colt Himself.
Only Matthew saw the other donkey. Well, he was a tax collector. He was used to inflating things beyond reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 57 of 223 (195214)
03-29-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
03-29-2005 1:11 PM


not really surprised.
Can't say I'm surprised - most creationists don't want to tackle such a fundemental problem. There is no real room for fudge and it's a fantastic problem for revealing the confused and frankly nonsense efforts of the creation movement in performing science.
The last one who tried, ended up in a terrible mess trying to give the earth a cold solid gold (or it could have be crystal) core in an attempt to get a creationist model to work. I think the effort drove them mad in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 1:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 4:08 PM CK has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 58 of 223 (195215)
03-29-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
03-29-2005 11:33 AM


Re: How much agreement?
quote:
Give me an example of what you have in mind and I'll tell you what I think. And I mean an example of something that PRESENTS ITSELF as true history to be taken as true history. Don't just say "Koran" and leave it to me to tell you that it doesn't present itself as a history, but as a compilation of teachings.
OK, what how about the Iliad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 03-29-2005 2:09 PM nator has not replied
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 4:18 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 223 (195216)
03-29-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
03-29-2005 12:11 PM


quote:
Everything about the Bible presents itself as fact, every author of every historical book. Those who try to pretend it is really fiction are the fiction-makers.
So, it must be true that you can drink poison and not be harmed, then, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 223 (195218)
03-29-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
03-29-2005 11:33 AM


Re: How much agreement?
And I mean an example of something that PRESENTS ITSELF as true history to be taken as true history.
This is Spinal Tap.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 03-29-2005 11:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
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