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Author Topic:   what is feminism?
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 91 of 147 (195277)
03-29-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 2:38 PM


the real origins of women's rights
did you think that the average woman just came up with this? no. feminism started in academia. the first feminist was actually an academic. and a man at that. his book is subjugation of women. his name? john stuart mill. an economist. not even a historian. how bout that.
How bout that? Well it's wrong, to begin with...
The first women's rights conference was held twenty years before Subjugation of Women was written; and the movement begin some time before that conference.
Women began the organized women's rights movement in the US, specifically women (like Elizabeth Cady Stanton) involved in the abolitionist movement who realized that they themselves were lacking and deserving of many rights, not unlike the slaves they were fighting to free.
Women's rights ideas had been around much longer in less organized form, at least back to the Revolutionary era and their promotion by Abigail Adams and others.
Maybe not quite "average" women but definitely not "academic", at least not in the sense you use...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 2:38 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:31 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 123 by Tusko, posted 04-01-2005 8:15 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 147 (195295)
03-29-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 12:30 PM


quote:
that's like saying because academic science has nothing to do with medicine and therefore doesn't help us any and doesn't matter.
Actually, academic science does have quite a lot to do with medicine, in that basic research into Biological phenomena leads to greater understanding of them and that will lead to better therapies, drugs, and procedures.
Can you show me where academic feminist ideas are similarly absorbed into the mainstream populist feminist movement?
I doubt you can, simply because I am part of that movement and I had never heard of "feminist ecology" before you mentioned it.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-29-2005 06:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 12:30 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:25 PM nator has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 93 of 147 (195339)
03-29-2005 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
03-29-2005 5:16 PM


no. i understand the argument. i still think it's crap. i think it's quite sexist to say that all "cultural" men are rapists.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-29-2005 11:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 5:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:24 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 147 (195341)
03-29-2005 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 11:17 PM


i think it's quite sexist to say that all "cultural" men are rapists.
Oh, absolutely, I agree. That would be sexist.
But the reason I know you didn't understand my argument is because you're convinced I said something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:17 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:57 PM crashfrog has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 95 of 147 (195342)
03-29-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nator
03-29-2005 6:33 PM


actually. academic science has very little to do directly with medicine. and remember. there is more to science than biology and much more than medical biology. studies of deep sea worms will not make your pace-maker run better.
but, as i said. an academic founded feminism. and who cares if you heard of it. who are you anyways?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 6:33 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:26 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 104 by nator, posted 03-30-2005 7:19 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 96 of 147 (195343)
03-29-2005 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 11:25 PM


who are you anyways?
Yeah, Schraf! Didn't you know? Brennakimi invented feminism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:25 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 97 of 147 (195345)
03-29-2005 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by pink sasquatch
03-29-2005 5:57 PM


Re: the real origins of women's rights
there weren't very many academic women then were there? but they were about as well educated as a woman could be and i'm sure their reading didn't consist of dime store novels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-29-2005 5:57 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-30-2005 10:02 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 98 of 147 (195346)
03-29-2005 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
03-29-2005 11:24 PM


you did say that. even if you don't realize it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2005 12:12 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 99 of 147 (195347)
03-29-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
03-29-2005 11:26 PM


piss off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2005 11:26 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 100 of 147 (195349)
03-30-2005 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 11:57 PM


you did say that. even if you don't realize it.
I guess I can just quit posting. Both you and Arach are apparently so good at reading my mind and telling me what I really meant to write but didn't, you can pretty much just cover anything I'd ever want to say, huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2005 1:19 AM crashfrog has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 101 of 147 (195355)
03-30-2005 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
03-30-2005 12:12 AM


ok. that is what you managed to say even if you didn't mean to. you should exercise more caution in your words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2005 12:12 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2005 1:24 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 102 of 147 (195357)
03-30-2005 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by macaroniandcheese
03-30-2005 1:19 AM


that is what you managed to say even if you didn't mean to. you should exercise more caution in your words.
I don't know how I could have made it any more clear than when I said:
quote:
2) When I say that certain characteristics are masculine in our culture, I'm saying neither that all men do them, or that no women do.
in message 132.
It really does help when you read what I actually wrote, not what you want me to have said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2005 1:19 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2005 4:47 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 147 (195365)
03-30-2005 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by crashfrog
03-30-2005 1:24 AM


Look I get what you were saying (if that's any consolation). It seems to me both A and B are having problems because they are arguing from what they's like the world to be rather than admitting there are other ways of viewing things.
In addition A (and maybe B) blew a gasket over your extension of the male "gender" to raping, impregnating, and abandoning. I don't think you believe in that definition yourself but I have to admit the way you wrote it made it sound like you did.
While I would disagree with that view of "masculine" role, I'd have to admit there are some that actually do believe that is "man" in a nutshell. Thus it seems a bit odd to say it simply isn't. A has a point that was not the worldview that anyone on the project was using, so to view it that way is to view it through a foreign filter not conducive to understanding the piece.
Then again I think A has abandoned gender filters altogether which also seems a little nonconducive. Other people do have to watch it (unless the movie was made for themselves) and those people will see things based on gender roles. Or if they put themselves in place of characters will perceive themselves to have gone through different roles.
I think the gender role filter you described is not common to most in the US, but I think a filterless view is even less common than that.
Maybe you need to put in a word on whether you want to see the world change for a filterless view, or not.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2005 1:24 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2005 2:21 PM Silent H has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 147 (195385)
03-30-2005 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2005 11:25 PM


quote:
actually. academic science has very little to do directly with medicine.
That's why I didn't say it was directly associated with medicine.
However, there have been many basic research discoveries in diverse fields which have eventually found themselves being applied in the medical field.
Even applied sciences like Engineering are involved, designing things like artificial hearts with the knowledge and skills already existing in the industry, developed for other uses.
quote:
and remember. there is more to science than biology and much more than medical biology. studies of deep sea worms will not make your pace-maker run better.
No, but it may help us to understand "the bends" better and treat someone with it more effectively.
Since these animals have very interesting chemistry, it may be that some compound they produce will be useful to medicine as a drug or drug component.
quote:
but, as i said. an academic founded feminism.
According to Pink, that's not how it went. How is it that non academic women had a conference on feminism a couple of decades before you say Feminism was founded?
quote:
and who cares if you heard of it. who are you anyways?
Me? I'm part of that populist feminist movement you have insisted is overrun with academic feminist ideas.
So...if I've never heard of most of those ideas, maybe you (gasp) might be wrong about that.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-30-2005 07:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2005 11:25 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2005 9:35 AM nator has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 105 of 147 (195400)
03-30-2005 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by nator
03-30-2005 7:19 AM


i never said overrun. you need to stop exaggerating my statements. i said that they reflect many of the developments. who do you think came up with the gender being separate from sex junk?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 03-30-2005 7:19 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by nator, posted 03-30-2005 11:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
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