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Author Topic:   The fate of Ms. Schiavo
IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 82 (195610)
03-31-2005 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by macaroniandcheese
03-30-2005 11:45 PM


"Hypocrisy?"

Seems that the American human rights activists who criticise other countries for killing women are the hypocrits. You are so willing to take the word of a man with questionable motives over no other evidence of her wishes. In your system of justice, the default for reasonable doubt is death.

I am a simple man of simple faith. I try to put myself in the father's place. A man claims to know my daughter in only a few years in comparison to the 30 years I knew her and he wished to kill her without allowing me to take care of her. This is not right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2005 11:45 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-31-2005 12:49 AM IANAT has responded
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 03-31-2005 1:27 AM IANAT has not yet responded
 Message 36 by Thor, posted 03-31-2005 2:08 AM IANAT has not yet responded
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 03-31-2005 7:19 AM IANAT has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 32 of 82 (195612)
03-31-2005 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IANAT
03-31-2005 12:40 AM


that was a response to tom delay refusing to save his own father's life. learn to read in context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IANAT, posted 03-31-2005 12:40 AM IANAT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by IANAT, posted 03-31-2005 1:31 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 82 (195616)
03-31-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IANAT
03-31-2005 12:40 AM


You are so willing to take the word of a man with questionable motives over no other evidence of her wishes.

No other evidence? Hardly - two other individuals have given sworn testimony that corroborates Michael's statements of her wishes. This was sufficient evidence to convince 6 courts of law and 19 judges.

A man claims to know my daughter in only a few years in comparison to the 30 years I knew her and he wished to kill her without allowing me to take care of her. This is not right.

If it's not what she wants, then its not what she wants. Maybe it doesn't feel right to you, but don't adults have the right to do things that their parents don't approve of? I certainly hope so.

This message has been edited by crashfrog, 03-31-2005 01:31 AM


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IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 82 (195617)
03-31-2005 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
03-31-2005 12:49 AM


Speaking of context, the thread is about Mrs. Schiavo, not Tom Delay.

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 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-31-2005 12:49 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by nator, posted 03-31-2005 1:52 AM IANAT has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 485 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 35 of 82 (195625)
03-31-2005 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by IANAT
03-31-2005 1:31 AM


quote:
Speaking of context, the thread is about Mrs. Schiavo, not Tom Delay.

Speaking of context, this thread is about the argument over keeping Terri Schaivo on her feeding tube, of which Tom DeLay's congress is a very large part.

Delay and his mother pulled the plug on his own comatose, severely brain damaged father instead of putting him on life-saving dialysis when his kidneys began to fail.

Now he is condemning the same private action and using it for his own crass political gain.

I'd say that's completely relevant and in context.


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 Message 34 by IANAT, posted 03-31-2005 1:31 AM IANAT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Thor, posted 03-31-2005 2:15 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 4226 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 36 of 82 (195630)
03-31-2005 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IANAT
03-31-2005 12:40 AM


You are so willing to take the word of a man with questionable motives over no other evidence of her wishes.

Personally, I'm taking the word of the many judges that looked at the details of the situation and made an informed decision on the case.

A man claims to know my daughter in only a few years in comparison to the 30 years I knew her and he wished to kill her without allowing me to take care of her.

The cardiac arrest that she had 15 years ago and the resulting severe brain damage is what killed her. All the feeding tube was doing was preventing the body from going where the brain already went a long time ago. Terri Schiavo the 'person' died years ago. Let the body go in peace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IANAT, posted 03-31-2005 12:40 AM IANAT has not yet responded

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 4226 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 37 of 82 (195631)
03-31-2005 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by nator
03-31-2005 1:52 AM


Delay and his mother pulled the plug on his own comatose, severely brain damaged father instead of putting him on life-saving dialysis when his kidneys began to fail.

Rather ironic him having the name 'Delay', it seems like that's exactly what he didn't do.


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 Message 35 by nator, posted 03-31-2005 1:52 AM nator has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20254
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 38 of 82 (195664)
03-31-2005 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IANAT
03-31-2005 12:40 AM


again ...
using overemotive words and accusing others of motives that are only your opinions does not make your case any more valid or reasonable.

this is not killing, the mind, the person is already dead and gone, long gone, forever gone. there is nothing there to build a mind on to say nothing of being able to recover the specific mind that has desolved here.

and again ... High Court Rejects New Schiavo Request (click)

The U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case for the sixth time late Wednesday, taking less than two hours to reject her parents' request that the feeding tube for their brain-damaged daughter be reinserted.

The one-sentence ruling came hours after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals resoundingly declined to intervene in the case. Justices did not explain their decision and there was no indication how they voted.

The Supreme Court's decision, on Schiavo's 13th day without food or water, was the latest in a string of losses in state and federal courts for her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and the second time in a week the high court rejected the parents' claims.

bold for emPHASis

... and again?

What part of "NO" don't some people understand?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IANAT, posted 03-31-2005 12:40 AM IANAT has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 670
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 39 of 82 (195682)
03-31-2005 8:42 AM


Some wag on the internet came up with a new living will for those of us living in Florida! :D

As a public service, I am circulating a revised living will form that
I urge you all to complete and put on file as soon as possible.

Florida Living Will

I, _________________________ (fill in the blank), being of sound mind
and body, unequivocally declare that in the event of a catastrophic
injury, I do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial
means.

I hereby instruct my loved ones and relatives to remove all
life-support systems, once it has been determined that my brain is no
longer functioning in a cognizant realm.

However, that judgment should be made only after thorough consultation
with medical experts; i.e., individuals who actually have been
trained, educated and certified as doctors.

Under no circumstances -- and I can't state this too strongly --
should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood politicians who
couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it.
Furthermore, it is my firm hope that, when the time comes, any
discussion about terminating my medical treatment should remain
private and confidential.

Living in Florida, however, I am acutely aware that the legislative
and executive branches of state government are fond of meddling in
family matters, and have little concern for the privacy and dignity of
individuals.

Therefore, I wish to make my views on this subject as clear and
unambiguous as possible.

Recognizing that some politicians seem cerebrally challenged
themselves (and with no medical excuse), I'll try to keep this simple
and to the point:

1. While remaining sensitive to the feelings of loved ones who might
cling to hope for my recovery, let me state that if a reasonable
amount of time passes -- say, ____ (fill in the blank) months -- and I
fail to sit up and ask for a cold beer, it should be presumed that
I won't ever get better. When such a determination is reached, I
hereby instruct my spouse, children and attending physicians to pull
the plug, reel in the tubes and call it a day.

2. Under no circumstances shall the members of the Legislature enact a
special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that
these boneheads mind their own damn business, and pay attention
instead to the health, education and future of the millions of
Floridians who aren't in a permanent coma.

3. Under no circumstances shall the governor of Florida butt into this
case and order my doctors to put a feeding tube down my throat or
through a hole into my abdomen to keep me alive. I don't care how many
fundamentalist votes he's trying to scrounge for his run for the
presidency in 2008, it is my wish that he plays politics with someone
else's life and leaves me to die in peace.

4. I couldn't care less if a hundred religious zealots send e-mails to
legislators in which they pretend to care about me. I don't know these
people, and I certainly haven't authorized them to preach and crusade
on my behalf. They should mind their own business, too.

5. It is my heartfelt wish to expire quietly and without a public
spectacle. This is obviously impossible once elected officials become
involved. So, while recognizing the wrenching emotions that attend the
prolonged death of a loved one, I hereby instruct my relatives to
settle all disagreements about my care in private or in the courts, as
provided by law.

If any of my family goes against my wishes and turns my case into a
political cause, I hereby promise to come back from the grave and make
his or her existence a living hell.

--
Evan Marcus
evan@marcus5.net


Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-31-2005 9:09 AM kjsimons has responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 82 (195694)
03-31-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by kjsimons
03-31-2005 8:42 AM


Heh heh. I like this one, myself.

"My wife and I made our living wills last night. Mine says that if I fall into a persistent vegitative state, and Tom DeLay comes within a hundred miles of me, I am to turn into a zombie and rip his fucking head off."


"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by kjsimons, posted 03-31-2005 8:42 AM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by kjsimons, posted 03-31-2005 9:17 AM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 670
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 41 of 82 (195699)
03-31-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dan Carroll
03-31-2005 9:09 AM


ROTFALMAO!!! That link was great Dan (or his clever alias)! :D

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-31-2005 9:09 AM Dan Carroll has not yet responded

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 82 (195882)
03-31-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
03-30-2005 10:29 PM


"...So, in America, the great protector of individual freedom, a judge can prevent a father and mother from giving food or water to their starving daughter..."

In order to protect her individual freedom, yes. In this case, they are protecting her from THEM.

The real question is why the great protector of individuals couldn't grant the same humane end of life options to Terri that it regularly offers to dogs.

The heart attack and brain damage killed Teri, but her body didn't need to be starved to death. Even if she had left a living will, in FL euthanasia was never an option. Ironically, the same right to lifers that decried her starvation made it happen.

Citizzzen


The message is ended, go in peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 03-30-2005 10:29 PM IANAT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NosyNed, posted 03-31-2005 8:42 PM Citizzzen has responded

  
Chad_Hilse1
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 82 (195883)
03-31-2005 8:41 PM


it's a little late now, but...
why not just let her live? I mean, if they let her live, her parents could die believing that she has a chance, that their little girl is still alive. Do you really think that she cared at thaat point? Whatever happens to her, her brain was jelled, and she wasn't going to care a whole lot one way or the other.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 03-31-2005 9:47 PM Chad_Hilse1 has responded
 Message 50 by Ben!, posted 03-31-2005 10:38 PM Chad_Hilse1 has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8866
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 44 of 82 (195884)
03-31-2005 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Citizzzen
03-31-2005 8:37 PM


Protecting the parents
In this case, they are protecting her from THEM.

The decision to allow her body to die protects the parents from themselves too.

They were about to dedicate their lives to tending a corpse with a beating heart. Moving even further from reality and building up their delusion that she was still there and responding to them.

Leaving them in this state for more years and encouraging this is another one of the dispicable things done by those using this case for political ends.

For those who thik this is very hard hearted: some of us have walked in those shoes, don't be to quick to think you understand until you have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Citizzzen, posted 03-31-2005 8:37 PM Citizzzen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Lammy, posted 03-31-2005 10:13 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 78 by Citizzzen, posted 04-05-2005 10:21 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 82 (195891)
03-31-2005 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Chad_Hilse1
03-31-2005 8:41 PM


why not just let her live?

Because she didn't want to.

Do you really think that she cared at thaat point?

I don't see how that matters, exactly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Chad_Hilse1, posted 03-31-2005 8:41 PM Chad_Hilse1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Chad_Hilse1, posted 03-31-2005 9:54 PM crashfrog has responded

  
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