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Author Topic:   "Archaeopteryx; bird or reptile, or both?"
mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 3 of 34 (195297)
03-29-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-29-2005 6:10 PM


Hi Schraf,
Nearly all cladograms place Archeopteryx within clade Aves (at the base), meaning they are indeed birds. Just because modern birds have a certain suite of features, doesn't mean an organism must have those specific modern features in order to be considered a bird (this is why the notion of basal & crown groups were invoked). I am aware of one or two cladograms that actually place Archaeopteryx in the node below Aves, called Avialae. Strictly speaking in this scenarion they can't be considered birds. But since science is a consensus activity, Archaeopteryx is currently considered a bird using the cladistic classification method.
I think you are actually asking the wrong question. I think the question you should be asking is, "is Archaeopteryx a basal bird, if it is a bird at all?" The last part is answered in para 1, & the first part is as unequivocal as it is possible to get in science; yes, Archaeopteryx is as basal a bird as it is possible to get without being a non-avian therapod with feathers. Starting with therapods & ending with modern birds, Archaeopteryx just about makes it over the start line of bird-hood.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 6:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2005 1:27 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 6 by nator, posted 03-31-2005 1:46 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 34 (195362)
03-30-2005 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
03-30-2005 1:27 AM


Paul,
No argument from me!
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2005 1:27 AM PaulK has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 10 of 34 (195960)
04-01-2005 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mick
03-31-2005 7:02 PM


Mick,
Cladistics treats all known species as terminal nodes on a phylogeny.
Strictly speaking, true. A cladogram does not infer ancestors. But when fossils from different times are considered there is no reason why this can't be the case, although the cladogram becomes a phylogenetic tree (which can infer ancestors), rather than a cladogram. The principles are the same.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mick, posted 03-31-2005 7:02 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mick, posted 04-01-2005 4:09 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 12 of 34 (196089)
04-01-2005 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mick
04-01-2005 4:09 PM


Hi Mick,
Anyway, l'm not so sure whether it's possible to decide whether a species is transitional or not based on fossil record or anything else. A good example is the platypus. It has characteristics that are kind of intermediate between reptiles and mammals (it's oviparous, it lactates but has no nipples, it is endothermic). Molecular phylogenies also put this species basally to the rest of mammalia. So it's transitional in the sense that it looks intermediate. But as far as I know nobody has ever suggested that eutherian and marsupial mammals evolved FROM the platypus, and there is no evidence of this. so it isn't transitional in what I understand to be the evolutionary sense.
You make a valid point.
When I suggest that Archaeopteryx lithogaphica is a transitional, I am not specifically pointing to that individual, or even that species, but a morphologically simlilar taxon that is closely related. I would agree that Archaeopteryx lithogaphica isn't necessarily the direct descendent of all birds, it may be a sister species or genus of one that was. As far as we know, one of the seven specimens may have been the last living example of A.lithographica, & an as yet unknown sister clade went on to spawn the rest of the birds. It seems a more than reasonable inference to state that A.lithographica was a taxon at least representative of an intermediate form, if it wasn't the intermediate itself.
The platypus example is a bit different, it isn't a fossil found at a relevant point in the geological record. It is an extant species, & a cladogram would simply show the divergence of it's clade relative to other mammalian clades, rather than infer that it is itself a transitional between modern & ancient taxa (which it can't be, obviously, since it is itself a modern taxon). The actual organism at the monotreme node was probably very different.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mick, posted 04-01-2005 4:09 PM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by randman, posted 06-04-2005 3:46 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 15 of 34 (214139)
06-04-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by randman
06-04-2005 3:46 AM


randman,
Moreover, since similarities can evolve independently of a mutal common ancestor passing those similar traits down, does that not undercut the whole assumption used in examining fossils, namely that if they are similar, they got their similar traits from a common ancestor?
But the pattern of common descent isn't just homologous characters, it manifests itself over time as well. As evidenced by the correlation between stratigraphy & cladograms.
Moreover, for convergent evolution to take place similar selective pressures must be in evidence. Why do birds show so many homologies with therapods when their lifestyles are so different? Why do molecular homologies also point to a reptile avian ancestor when modern birds & reptiles have very different lifestyles, & therefore different selective pressures? There are mammals that share a more similar lifestyle to birds; are under more similar selective pressures than reptiles, yet there are many more homologies amongst Aves, therapods, & modern reptiles than mammals.
Common descent explains all of this.
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-04-2005 10:24 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by randman, posted 06-04-2005 3:46 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 06-05-2005 3:44 AM mark24 has replied
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 19 of 34 (214492)
06-05-2005 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
06-05-2005 3:44 AM


randman,
Response posted on correct forum as requested.
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-05-2005 12:48 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 06-05-2005 3:44 AM randman has not replied

  
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