I certainly had a lot of disdain for buz's fundamentalism, which I think I've demonstrated a number of times. I didn't much like him and I'm sure he didn't particularly care for me. I've mentioned once or twice that he reminds me of my father, who has been a fundie since the mid 80s. I love my father dearly, but I have no more patience for his close-minded attitudes than I do for buz's.
I think buz might be a fine man; I imagine him to be the type that would do most anything for you, without regard for your religious views or even your sexuality, if he felt that you truly needed his help. That's the type of man my dad is - a good person who just happens to be wrong about almost everything.
So in that spirit I would like to offer my sincere best wishes to buz. I probably won't miss him much, but if my vote counts for anything I would vote to allow him back with full posting rights. He was a harmless old coot, albeit a highly annoying one. As such, he was one of those irritating people who serve to make life more interesting.
Years and years ago, long before a certain Senator invented the internet, even before Grease was ‘the Word’, I had a fight with my Father and my Grandmother.
I had come home from Elementary School and like many other days they asked me what I had learned. That day’s class had been about the three states of water, vapor, liquid and solid. During our talk, I commented in my youthful wisdom that snow was a solid. Being born and raised in California, snow always seemed a bit mystical to me and I had paid particular attention when the teacher talked about ice crystals -- we even made paper snow-flakes.
My father assured me I must have misunderstood. Snow was soft and not hard and so could not be ice. He went on to explain to me that snow could become ice, but that happened after it fell when it got colder.
I bring this up, because it really did take me years to come to grips with the idea that my father simply wasn’t going to be able to understand certain concepts. His world was in many ways more real than mine, but it was also based on personal observation. Snow might start to melt and then with the drop in temperature refreeze or snow might become compacted and more ‘solid’. His world wasn’t simply empirical, it was to steal a phrase, impirical. Historically, he certainly wasn’t alone in presuming that matter had more states then we now know.
I think that is why Buzz never much bothered me. I understand that Buzz is from an older world where ‘common sense’ rules. His worldview is just different enough that we shouldn’t expect him to just get it. My father would never get snow, unless he could first get the states of matter.
I wonder if Buzz could be restricted to certain forums? Perhaps if he was kept away from the more hard science topics he would be able to fall within the guidelines?
I'm wondering if you would enter the following message of gratitude for me to the folks:
I want to say that I am extremely grateful for the kind remarks of you all, my friends, who for the most part have been most gracious. That includes Percy and especially Parasimonium who has been ever so gracious and kind.
Thank you, my dear friend , Mike The Whiz, who's been there when I needed him for encouragement and support.
Sidelined, thanks so much for the price you're willing to pay in protest, but I hope you don't leave on my account. EvC needs you. You and Irish Rock Hound, as well as others were most sincere, patient and kind in your efforts to help me.
Thanks to Sylas for patiently explaining to me so much so as for me to understand the counterpart positions.
Thanks to admins for all the work you do to make the forum function so efficiently.
ID creationists, hold the line, in spite of the pressure. The Bible, like other books, means what it says and says what it means, including the supernatural. Post prayerfully and carefully. May God's special blessings, strength and wisdom be upon you. There's a number of other special people not mentioned, all of whom have been a blessing to me.
I leave the admonition that EvC will allow Intelligent design creationists the courtesy to post their own ideologies and not be required to convert to secularisim or debate secularistically in order to participate on the board.
May God bless you ALL, many of whom I'm not very familiar with! Go with God. EvC will be on my prayer list.
Aw, come on Percy, let him back in. For all his myriad faults, he never was one to resort to personal attacks (unless I'm very much mistaken, please let me know if I am), which is more than can be said for some long-time members who are still here - myself included, at least in one or two instances. He's an old man who will probably never be able to debate in good faith; he never learned how to begin with and he's too old to change. We make accomodations for others who have difficulty participating, why can't we do the same for buz?
Maybe for every future forum violation he could be suspended for one week rather than the usual 24 hours. The same rule could be imposed on anyone else who's had a certain number of shorter suspensions.
Buzsaw has been, mostly, a gentleman in discussion. There are some things, however, he just does not get. He presents an "admonition" to allow ID creationists to post their own ideologies. But that is already perfectly in order. The only problem is that, being a debate forum, their ideas will get challenged. And creationists of any stripe can challenge the ideas of others as well.
But... and this is another thing buz never seemed to grasp ... a challenge does not mean simply "I don't believe it" or "It's not logical" (buz's favourite line). In a long thread, it is expected that there will be some substantive engagement. Criticism of a position based on something more than personal aversion or inability to accept. There is in this forum (and may this long continue!) an expectation that the ideal engagement is by appeal to empirical evidence in some way.
Buz's continual complaint... not always expressed in the concilliatory terms of his farewell email! ... was unfairness and bias. I think he was wrong in this. The guidelines are not being unfairly applied to any significant extent. It was also enormously frustrating that buz seemed to portray as some kind of victory when he could respond to every single line with "it's not logical". It has not a victory; it was buz's own most serious loss and failure that he was never able to get past his own presumptions and actually find a basis for judging what was and was not logical.
I don't mind if buz is allowed back or not. I can understand his loss of posting rights. If his generous nature (and he has that, for sure) was more consistent, it would be another thing. So I'm in the "don't care category" about buz's status. Not that I don't care about buz. I have enjoyed our exchanges, and thing that they have been worthwhile. I'm glad buz got something from them as well. I wish him nothing but the best.
But I understand also why he might have run out of rope as far as being a member of the board. I'm content to recognize reasons for, and against, permanent suspension or reinstatement, without having strong feelings for which way that should fall.
My strong feelings are to wish Buzsaw well, especially in those more important parts of life which go beyond a discussion board. Thanks Buzsaw... and all the best.