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Member (Idle past 5165 days) Posts: 116 From: Richmond, VA, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If prayers go unanswered....? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If that's what they said, I wouldn't mind. But they clearly believe that their prayers have been personally answered and God has miraculously directly intervened in their particular case to save the life of their loved one. ...and oh yeah, the doctors and nurses helped a little bit too. That's the feeling I get from these people, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. PEOPLE did that work.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, of course not. But the science is where all of it starts. Even if a doctor or an engineer thinks up something innovative, it still is probably based upon past science. Scientific findings are what doctors and medical technicians and practitioners of all kinds use to develop cures and treatments.
quote: I included doctors in my example.
quote: Mmmmm, I'd really like to see some data to back that up. What kind of faith did they have, for example? Were they devout, did they attend worship services, did they consider themselves a particular sect or denomination, or did they just believe in some kind of undefined "higher power" a la Percy?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What kind of faith did they have, for example? Were they devout, did they attend worship services, did they consider themselves a particular sect or denomination, or did they just believe in some kind of undefined "higher power" a la Percy? quote: I'm just trying to understand exactly what you mean by "people of faith", and also what you mean by "bright minds". I have always been talking only about "bright minds" who have been involved in producing medical advances. For example, your originaly claimed the following WRT the bright minds who have been involed in producing medical advances:
quote: Now, I have shown that a significant portion of people involved in producing medical advances for the last 100 years or so, the scientists who do the basic research from which our advances originate, have not been believers at all. For you to claim that the "vast majority" of "bright minds" involved in producing medical advances have always "not only had a profound respect for God but also for the majesty of His creations", I think you need to show that this is actually what the "vast majority" specifically believed. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 08:28 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I actually do believe that there is a general social detrimental effect to discounting human achievement and instead giving most of the credit to one's personal deity in cases such as this. I believe that it fostors the attitude of preferring to "pray to make things better" and "giving it up to god" instead of thinking hard and making every effort to figure out solutions to problems, and taking action.
quote: ...and every time I have been in such a situation (and I have been, more than just a few times) I have been so grateful to the doctors and everyone else who's expertise and skill helped my loved one to recover. AND I've been plenty emotional. And it's not just those people. Inevitably Oprah or some news anchor says "It's a miracle", too. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 08:43 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Uh, I watch the television news occasionally, and I see the people saying "Its a miracle" all the time.
quote: I'm sure they did. It's not what is reported, however.
quote: Yeah. Every case is a miracle case these days. How about you reply to my post with the substantive questions you say you would love to answer instead of dicking around? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 09:02 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I have only ever been talking about medical advances, and since I brought up the issue, I get to define the argument. Seriously, It is true that most people, including the brightest minds, have been believers in some sort of unseen supernatural power.
quote: Well, not everyone believes in the same way, do they? You are the one saying that the vast majority have "profound respect" for God, etc. Those are specific claims about the nature of their belief, which I think you should at least try to back up. If you want to make a very vague claim such as the one I made above, that's different.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I did a search on "miracle" on Yahoo News, and 8,900 hits came back. They refer to sports team victories, medical and disaster survival stories, tales of items found, descriptions of products and economic conditions, and so on. What I want to know is why don't the obituaries, sports team losses, failed products, and stories of items never recovered mention that a miracle didn't occur?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, that is certainly possible.
quote: I don't know if that is a fair statement or not. We are now getting into the nature of individuals' beliefs. What do you mean by "respect for God"?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, what do you mean by "honors God"? See the difficulty here?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: He had a cold, pink. He had a sore throat that was gone after a night's rest. If this is what he considers "intense physical illness" then he's a pretty fragile boy.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
"Respecing" or "honoring" god seems to mean different things to different people, depending upon individual religious notions and the religious tradition in which they were raised.
In order to fit all of the people you want to into the group of "bright minds" who also believe in God, I think you are going to have to leave it that vague.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
If God lets people die of disease that He would have otherwise saved, simply to avoid the possibility of registering a statistical anomaly in a small clinical trial, then God is not a very nice guy... quote: But if "small statistical anomolies" continue to show up in repeated tests, larger, more meaningful tests are generally undertaken to explort the phenomena further. At any rate, you are kind of avoiding pink's point that God might have to let people die to avoid detection. So, what if someone did a very large study and we still saw no difference? What would you think of there being no detectable effect?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
A reply to message #68, please.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, then, please define what it means for people to "respect God" such that you are reasonably sure that the definition you use applies to the "vast majority" of believers.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, that must mean that it is quite possible that God is letting some people die (or perhaps even causing them to die) just so he can avoid detection. Your last message referred to statistical anomolies in small studies not making any difference.
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