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Author Topic:   Organized Religion & personal Spirituality
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 130 (196915)
04-05-2005 11:04 AM


Here is where we can air our church politics.
This thread is a free for all, but I will open it by posting a link and asking for comments.
Error 404 - Not Found
I realize that our favorite cartoonist, Jack Chick, is behind this article but I know that there is a bit of truth behind it.
Also found this:
Dr.Bob Gottfried writes:
One of the major problems with religion is that it can make us
feel inadequate and unworthy. After all, if we are still facing
problems in our lives, perhaps it is because we are not good
enough people in the eyes of God. Or if adversity hits us, maybe
it is because we are not trying hard enough to follow religious
practices.
The truth is that we do not need religion to develop spiritually.
Religion is not the goal; it is just a tool. Many people find it
difficult to accept, but in fact religion is a human invention.
Spirituality on the other hand is a universal, godly existence
that is the core of life and not at its edge.
One of my biggest contentions with organized religion is that it
has not evolved and adapted at the pace of the rest of society.
The way some religions treat women is a classic example. Women
cannot be ordained as priests by the Catholic Church; they
cannot become rabbis or even sit beside men in orthodox Jewish
synagogues. Islam is no different. This changed in some
denominations like Anglican churches and Reformist Jewish
Synagogues. Many women have pointed out to me that the
percentage of women volunteering for the different Catholic
Church activities is very high. Why is assuming significant
lay responsibility acceptable but becoming a priest is not?
Some good points by Dr. Bobwhat does everyone think?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-11-2005 10:18 AM

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 130 (196982)
04-05-2005 3:57 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 130 (197200)
04-06-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-05-2005 11:04 AM


Networks working religion into television
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Lynn Elber
April 5, 2005 | Los Angeles --
The Gospel according to Mel, as the TV industry views it, is that religion sells. With Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" ranked among the 10 highest-grossing movies ever and with glowing visions of "The Da Vinci Code" profits before them, TV networks are embracing a newfound faith.
A miniseries about the Book of Revelation airs next week, while shows about a Catholic priest probing the supernatural and an Episcopalian minister who converses with God are on the drawing board.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 130 (197226)
04-06-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-06-2005 6:50 AM


... an Episcopalian minister who converses with God ...
will only be believable if it is set in a pub. LOL
From Robin Williams:

10. No snake handling.
9. You can believe in dinosaurs.
8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them.
7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.
6. Pew aerobics.
5.
Church year is color-coded.
4. Free wine on Sunday.
3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.
2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.
And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:

1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 130 (197259)
04-06-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-05-2005 11:04 AM


upside down
The only sentence I agree with in the Dr Bob quote is this:
Spirituality on the other hand is a universal, godly existence
that is the core of life and not at its edge.
The rest of his argument seems to contradict that statement.
It is my opinion the problem with western society, is this notion of "separation of church and state." This has turned into the situation where religion adjusts to the state, instead of vice versa. This is why Islamic states do not favor this arrangement of separation. Islam is a way of life, as the quote above states. It encompasses all, including state affairs. I believe Iraq democracy will initially start western but move to an Islamic state. We can live in peace together. I thank the USA for removing Saddam.
In our view, when your personal whims govern your religious devotion, you become lost. Submission and obedience to Allah is the challenge of this life, which is just a stepping stone. Of course it is difficult. It is part of the plan and personal challenge.
The author of your article has it upside down. Westerners' devotion to their whims and invented notions of freedom lead them to disobedience, which renders their personal religion almost like a hobby, subservient to frequently changing whims.
I know many of your forum atheists and cafeteria religion people will write angry replies to this letter. Sorry if I offend. I am just trying to defend a lifestyle and point out that not everyone thinks your western ideas are the nature of the universe.
You do not need to worry about me. I am not a terrorist, and I do not contribute money to their wicked ways. We just want to lead our Islamic lives in peace, and not have your ungodly ways intrude and interfere with our ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 04-05-2005 11:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 04-06-2005 12:59 PM IANAT has replied
 Message 11 by coffee_addict, posted 04-07-2005 12:28 AM IANAT has not replied
 Message 19 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-07-2005 3:12 AM IANAT has replied
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 2:46 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 41 by nator, posted 04-08-2005 7:18 PM IANAT has replied
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 04-14-2005 6:07 AM IANAT has not replied
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 04-14-2005 9:18 AM IANAT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 130 (197260)
04-06-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
Submission and obedience to Allah is the challenge of this life, which is just a stepping stone.
Funny, I am reminded of that scene at the beginning of Yellowbeard, where Cheech and Chong play privateers, Tommy Chong being the religious leader of the ship. Cheech remarks what a lot of treasure they have captured for the king. Chong asks whether it is better to please the king or God, and Cheech replies that, of course, it is better to please God. Then Chong asks who God's representative is, and Cheech replies, "You are." Then Chong remarks: "Well, God wants to keep it all!"
The problem of submission and obedience to Allah is that it always seems to end up being submission and obedience to those who claim to speak for Allah.
The problem you are having with America does not stem from our "cafeteria religion" -- the problem is our submission and obedience to the Flag, which really means submission and obedience to those who claim to speak for the Flag.

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Replies to this message:
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IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 130 (197274)
04-06-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chiroptera
04-06-2005 12:59 PM


Re: upside down
I have less objection the flag supporters compared to the porn coming from Hollywood over airwaves, and homosexual parades wanting to march in holy land of Jerusalem. Let them march anywhere else, but not in our lands, thank you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 130 (197277)
04-06-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by IANAT
04-06-2005 2:32 PM


Re: upside down
I have less objection the flag supporters compared to the porn coming from Hollywood over airwaves, and homosexual parades wanting to march in holy land of Jerusalem. Let them march anywhere else, but not in our lands, thank you.
Good gravy. It's off topic, so let's try to nip this one in the bud quick as a bunny by jumping right to the chase.
If you don't like porn, you don't have to watch it. If you don't like homosexuals, you don't have to associate with them.
That is the start and end of your choice in the matter. You get to decide for your life, without interference. Nobody can make you renounce your God, or suck a wang, or what-have-you. Nor do you get to have your godly ways intrude and interfere with others by stopping their pride parade, or preventing them from making porn, or what-have-you.
This is why separation of church and state is such a fantastic thing. You get to adhere to your beliefs, everyone else gets to adhere to theirs.
Tra-la. Simple, isn't it?
And as a quick side note... if you think that you, living in Texas, have a claim to Jerusalem as your land, but a homosexual living in Jerusalem does not, then you seriously need to get over yourself.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 2:32 PM IANAT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 130 (197278)
04-06-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by IANAT
04-06-2005 2:32 PM


Re: upside down
Is someone forcing you to watch porn? Is someone forcing you to march in a "homosexual" parade? It sounds like you want other people to leave you alone, but you aren't willing to leave your neighbors alone. Sounds a tad hypocritical to me. But I guess you are allowed when you know the one true faith. (Yes, I know that the followers of strict, fundamentalists faiths will take exception to this, but what do you expect from us atheists and cafeteria religionists?)

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Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 10 of 130 (197281)
04-06-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
04-06-2005 2:56 PM


Re: upside down
Is someone forcing you to watch porn? Is someone forcing you to march in a "homosexual" parade?
Maybe this is what we should do to religious fundamentalists - might help them to chill out.
mick

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 11 of 130 (197362)
04-07-2005 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Re: upside down
It's posts like this one that makes me remember and miss buzsaw. Nothing makes me happier to read than posts from 2 different religious perspectives telling each other that they have the right "truth" and that the other one is the devil's way.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 130 (197363)
04-07-2005 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by mick
04-06-2005 3:20 PM


Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
Why?
IANAT is wrong because there is no way that you will ever be Holy enough for God...despite praying ten or twenty times a day and living the right ways. You do have a point in that America claims to be a Christian nation and yet we ARE a nation of idolators.
The porn again liberals are wrong because your P.C. relativistic live and let live philosophy will allow the world to become worse and worse...until Jesus returns again to straighten it all out.
Whether the world is in bondage by seduction or oppression, having an idealistic Islamic world will never work because the Western materialists will never let it work. War will continue until the second coming.
My theology is part of the controversy with organized religion. Even if I am right it is wrong to legislate morality.

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Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 130 (197365)
04-07-2005 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
04-07-2005 12:38 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
Phatboy writes:
The porn again liberals are wrong because your P.C. relativistic live and let live philosophy will allow the world to become worse and worse...until Jesus returns again to straighten it all out.
I'm confused especially when you wrote later on that
quote:
My theology is part of the controversy with organized religion. Even if I am right it is wrong to legislate morality.
So... which is it? Do you think we should legislate morality or do youk think we should "live and let live"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 12:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 1:00 AM coffee_addict has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 130 (197366)
04-07-2005 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
04-07-2005 12:48 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
troy writes:
So... which is it? Do you think we should legislate morality or do you think we should "live and let live"?
I think that we should live and let live. The world is going to turn out as it is mean't to turn out and the fundamentalists will only send the spaceship earth on a worse course if they try and correct the flight pattern.
I don't want to become part of a self fullfilling prophecy that is caused by fundies who think that the world is going to end anyway.
It will happen as it is mean't to happen. Lets give everyone their right to be their own judge and let the play resume. When the curtain falls and the director comes from the clouds, we can face him with a clear conscience instead of worrying that we muddled up the plan.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-07-2005 1:04 AM Phat has replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 130 (197367)
04-07-2005 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
04-07-2005 1:00 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
You haven't answered my question. You seem to be saying that we shouldn't leave each other alone. Does this mean that we should legislate morality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 1:00 AM Phat has replied

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