Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,809 Year: 3,066/9,624 Month: 911/1,588 Week: 94/223 Day: 5/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Organized Religion & personal Spirituality
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 130 (197368)
04-07-2005 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
04-07-2005 1:04 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
I am not saying that we shouldnt leave each other alone. I am saying that as humans, we cannot leave each other alone. It is part of the problem.
That is why there will always be wars and controversies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-07-2005 1:04 AM coffee_addict has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 130 (197374)
04-07-2005 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
04-07-2005 1:04 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
Troy writes Phatboy:
quote:
You haven't answered my question.
Huh? It sure looked to me like he did. Your question was:
Do you think we should legislate morality or do youk think we should "live and let live"?
to which Phatboy responded:
I think that we should live and let live.
quote:
Does this mean that we should legislate morality?
but Phatboy had already made the Bradism:
Even if I am right it is wrong to legislate morality.
I don't mean to come down on you, Lam, but you seem to be looking for something I don't think Phatboy intended.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-07-2005 1:04 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 6:35 AM berberry has replied
 Message 21 by coffee_addict, posted 04-07-2005 12:21 PM berberry has not replied

StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 130 (197377)
04-07-2005 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
04-07-2005 1:00 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
Wonderfully written. Its refreshing to see someon who belives god has a plan, and then doesn't turn around and claim to know the plan using it as a means to tell others that they are wrong.
Bringing this back to our original topic I think that is what is wrong with church, whatever flavor it may be.
I personally don't like to be told what to think about a subject (religion) on which I have as much proof as the person giving the orders(be they preist, rabbi, pastor, etc)
I also cannot accept their veiws on a book that is supposed to be beyond questioning( bible, torah,koran) but falls up short in so many places.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 1:00 AM Phat has not replied

StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 130 (197378)
04-07-2005 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Re: upside down
You are an Islamic person living in TEXAS and you don't see why separation of church and state is a good thing!?!?!?
This separation allows you to worship your god, even if its not the same god that the majority of America, and even without looking at the numbers I have a hunch Islam is not the most common religion in America, much less Texas.
While they are separate they do influence each other. Its just easier to see change in an institution that historically has been morally inert.
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-07-2005 02:11 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 12:49 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM StormWolfx2x has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 130 (197397)
04-07-2005 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by berberry
04-07-2005 2:30 AM


We are all wrong, but you did not hear it from me!
Hey, Berberry! Welcome to da club. As pertaining to Troy and I, I originally made an opinionated proclamation that:
The porn again liberals are wrong because your P.C. relativistic live and let live philosophy will allow the world to become worse and worse...until Jesus returns again to straighten it all out.
As long as I am preaching my opinions from this soapbox, perhaps I should clarify the phrase "When Jesus returns He will straighten everything out." What I mean to say, especially for Troys benefit, is that when Jesus returns He is going to come looking for Troy and give him a big hug, so that Troy will feel better about Jesus.
Correct me if I am wrong, Troy, but you are suggesting that my Christian morality is still a form of "preaching or judging" and is...as such...not allowing you to live and let live. In that context, I am responding by saying that there is a bit of the Jewish Mother in me...I just can't leave you alone totally.
What do you think of all of this, berberry?
In closing, I might add that if I were the Pope, I would proclaim that everybody had crappy morality in some area of their lives but that I, as the Pope, would no longer attempt to tell everyone how to live. I would still voice my opinion, but from this day forth, everyone is on their own with God.
If you have read the book, see the movie. If you have seen the movie, become a critic.
If you have become a critic, join the club!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by berberry, posted 04-07-2005 2:30 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by berberry, posted 04-07-2005 12:49 PM Phat has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 21 of 130 (197458)
04-07-2005 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by berberry
04-07-2005 2:30 AM


Re: Both the Islamic guy and the liberals are wrong
It was late last night. I thought I saw him saying "I think we shouldn't live and let live."
Sorry about that.
Now, someone tell Christine to stop calling and screaming over the phone "why won't you love me!!?" at 4 in the morning. I'll pay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by berberry, posted 04-07-2005 2:30 AM berberry has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 130 (197463)
04-07-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
04-07-2005 6:35 AM


Re: We are all wrong, but you did not hear it from me!
Phatboy writes me:
quote:
What do you think of all of this, berberry?
I think you like to preach but you make an honest effort to avoid passing judgement. That's why I can get along with you even through all of our differences. I have a few friends who are like you, and they're among my favorite people. I am much more sensitive to Christians when they behave the way you behave than when they behave like buz or Faith.
This doesn't mean that I think you're fair on each and every issue, only that you try to be. You still have a ways to go, I think, but so long as your mind remains open to opposing opinions I can't fault you too harshly.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 6:35 AM Phat has not replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 130 (197478)
04-07-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by StormWolfx2x
04-07-2005 3:12 AM


Re: upside down
I am not permanently living in Texas, although it is a nice place.
Yes, I worship without problems in Texas. Yes, I get a few looks from people that worry me, but in general, I do not feel threatened here. I like America. I wish it had more moral control. The Christians, Muslims and Jews could probably agree on common moral laws. It would be the atheists that want to be legally wild.
You seem to imply that separation of church and state is required for freedom to worship. That is not true. An Islamic state may require certain ways, but those do not preclude practicing other religions in peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-07-2005 3:12 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 2:36 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 25 by kjsimons, posted 04-07-2005 2:44 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 26 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-07-2005 2:44 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 27 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2005 4:04 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 29 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-08-2005 3:40 AM IANAT has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 130 (197482)
04-07-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
An Islamic state may require certain ways....
That's what worries us. We get worried about these "ways" that might be required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has not replied

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 25 of 130 (197484)
04-07-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
An Islamic state may require certain ways, but those do not preclude practicing other religions in peace.
Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state that doesn't allow any Christian churches to be built within the kingdom. That sort of precludes the full practice of Christianity, don't you think?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 130 (197485)
04-07-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
The Christians, Muslims and Jews could probably agree on common moral laws.
You haven't paid a whole lot of attention to American law, have you? Without separation of church and state, the very first thing that would happen is that your children would be forced to acknowledge Christ as their savior in public school.
I don't say this as some sort of doomsaying prophecy; I say it because only 45 years ago, my Jewish mother was forced to do so.
It would be the atheists that want to be legally wild.
And, what... the atheists are somehow not part of the state?
An Islamic state may require certain ways, but those do not preclude practicing other religions in peace.
The rituals of my religion involve watching porn and sucking dick. It's called the First National Church of Piss off and Mind Your Own Business.
Here's hoping you're cool with my practicing it in peace.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 27 of 130 (197501)
04-07-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
I am not permanently living in Texas, although it is a nice place.
In addition you are not the only Islamic person in the US, or on the planet. I love how you talk for people within the midEast as if you are their representative. There are people from that region that do not think as you do... and are Islamic.
I do not feel threatened here. I like America. I wish it had more moral control.
That's the catch. With more moral control you would feel threatened and you would not like it.
You can't have it both ways.
The Christians, Muslims and Jews could probably agree on common moral laws.
Brother you haven't studied much US history have you? Catholics and Protestants can't get along, much less them with Muslims and Jews.
Since you are for more moral control, you would be happy when only Sunday is allowed to be for worship/day of rest in accordance with Xian doctrine?
It would be the atheists that want to be legally wild.
Atheists can be more prudish than theists.
As it stands I am an atheist who isn't. So you believe that if my friends outnumber you, then it would be fine if we fix your immoral practices and make sure you practice the moral action of openmindedness, including forcing you to watch porn and attend gay marches at least once a year (or watch one season of Queer Eye).
I mean that is how the cookie crumbles. If you are for moral legislation then that means any moral system can be enforced, as long as it gets the votes.
You seem to imply that separation of church and state is required for freedom to worship. That is not true. An Islamic state may require certain ways, but those do not preclude practicing other religions in peace.
That is a contradiction. You mean to say separation is not required for Abraham-founded religions to practice their religions in peace... generally speaking.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 4:14 PM Silent H has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 130 (197504)
04-07-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Silent H
04-07-2005 4:04 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
So you believe that if my friends outnumber you, then it would be fine if we fix your immoral practices and make sure you practice the moral action of openmindedness, including forcing you to watch porn and attend gay marches at least once a year (or watch one season of Queer Eye).
No, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he's saying that he should be allowed to get together with Muslims who think exactly like he does and Christians who think exactly like he does and Jews who think exactly like he does to force people who do not think exactly like he does to behave in the manner he and his moral clones think is proper.
Does that just about sum it up, IANAT? Or did I leave out the interesting methods of coercion that you might have in mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2005 4:04 PM Silent H has not replied

StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 130 (197612)
04-08-2005 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
"I get a few looks from people that worry me"
Be happy that the seperation of church and state resricts them to only looks. If the US became a religious state it would undoubtably become an Eveangelical Christian one (heck it almost is already), and then looks would be the least of your problems. Remember the attacks nationwide after 9/11, thats what happened when that type of activity was illegal!!!
"An Islamic state may require certain ways, but those do not preclude practicing other religions in peace."
An Islamic state, by defintion, would preclude practicing other religions in peace.
"The Christians, Muslims and Jews could probably agree on common moral laws"
They already did,
murder is bad
stealing is bad
unprovoked violence is bad
and if you commit adultry, that woman you hate gets half your stuff.
ta da!
This message has been edited by StormWolfx2x, 04-08-2005 03:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 04-08-2005 4:55 AM StormWolfx2x has replied
 Message 35 by jar, posted 04-08-2005 3:34 PM StormWolfx2x has not replied
 Message 49 by IANAT, posted 04-09-2005 8:38 PM StormWolfx2x has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 130 (197622)
04-08-2005 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by StormWolfx2x
04-08-2005 3:40 AM


Re: upside down
"The Christians, Muslims and Jews could probably agree on common moral laws"
They already did, murder is bad stealing is bad unprovoked violence is bad and if you commit adultry, that woman you hate gets half your stuff.
With the possible exception of adultery (and even that is questionable), those are not morals laws. Indeed the most immoral person might agree with them (including adultery) as they are the legal protection of personal civil rights, and not the persecution of someone's moral lapses.
This is of course why atheists and other theist groups could agree with these same set of laws with the X-I-J crowd, and why we do not have laws regarding who is God and how you can use his name and etc etc.
Of course there are morals laws, and many stem from social conventions just as arbitrary and bigoted as religious rules, some even based on religious rules or practices. But these are generally on the local level, and they are usually contentious.
And of course I would argue that they need to be eliminated.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-08-2005 3:40 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-08-2005 6:16 PM Silent H has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024