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Author Topic:   Destiny/Free Will
Philip
Member (Idle past 2826 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 16 of 28 (8990)
04-26-2002 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Raaven4
04-24-2002 3:02 PM


B F Skinner once stated something like: We're ... "beyond freedom and dignity". The 'Calvinist' of behavioral psychology, he believed we are governed by our observed environment like rats in the experimental maze. I would think that “mutationalists” would follow the same religion. I myself am a ‘Skinnerian’ on another level (‘non-environmental level’ if you will); I believe everyone has a supreme master he is enslaved to.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-26-2002 1:43 AM Philip has responded

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 17 of 28 (8991)
04-26-2002 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Philip
04-26-2002 1:06 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Skinner ... The 'Calvinist' of behavioral psychology, he believed we are governed by our observed environment like rats in the experimental maze. I would think that “mutationalists” would follow the same religion ...

I seem to remember you use mutationalist in place of evolutionist. In this case I would say you are wrong, though perhaps not entirely.

Firstly you would be wrong to generalise about the behaviourist theories of evolutionists or to deduce any necessary behavioural theory from the theory of evolution.

Nevertheless, in the study of gene expression, there is a danger of genetic determinism: of believing that genes which may influence behaviour do so in a way that is consistently expressed. Such a view is too simplistic to be honestly held by all but the most crippingly narrow-minded scientist. That the public may be influenced in the direction of determinism by talk of "gay genes" or "aggresive genes" is a indictment of science's greatest failing - the failure to communicate its methods and findings clearly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Philip, posted 04-26-2002 1:06 AM Philip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Philip, posted 04-26-2002 5:36 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 2826 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 18 of 28 (8994)
04-26-2002 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Mister Pamboli
04-26-2002 1:43 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:

That the public may be influenced in the direction of determinism by talk of "gay genes" or "aggresive genes" is a indictment of science's greatest failing - the failure to communicate its methods and findings clearly.

I could not agree more.
Oversimplistic, I was, sorry. My point is: 'Destiny' and 'Free Will' are extremely paradoxical topics.

I fully reject "gay genes" and such as the only criteria for "sin". For example, I myself am an identical twin (genetic clone). My twin is opposite in many "behaviors": He is a 'Zon' atheist/evolutionist (or so he states) while I am a 'born-again' Christian/creationist (so I state). He is an 'AA'-alcoholic, I only drink NyQuil (rarely). He has several wives (caucasion); I have one (oriental). I am a podiatrist and portrait artist, he is an engineer and sports-lover. I am a Red-neck and he is a Yankee. We were raised together like average twins. This seems to disprove "genetic sin" enough, that SIN is from the 'real' person.

Perhaps, the human genome and gene pool(s) only produce a mere carnal-man with affections and appetites whose apperceptions are extremely limited, yet somewhat beyond that of a dog or monkey. (This hypothesis needs development.) The 'natural' man is: Excellent, yet 'lustful', 'striving', 'violent', 'crafty', 'worldly', 'self-deceived', and destined for destruction. Sins occur at random and often go unnoticed, and appear 'written into' the genetic-code (as prenatal sin). But what makes one twin (like myself) go one way and one the other is not the "sin-gene" alone.

Note eukaryotic genes also change and collaborate with protein factors that are environmental in nature (at least I was told in genetics classes).

Moreover, one may percieve "Calvinistic" (Destiny) scriptures as compatible with "Arminian" (Free Will) scriptures: i.e., God is Sovereign but I am a morally responsible wretch requiring Salvation from my sin(s). No evolution of good behaviour is possible from within these genes as genes merely serve 'carnal 'minds' and affections (and other apperceptive entities within carnal man).

But a 'regenerated' man (that 'crucified-and-risen-with-Christ' type of man), usually with songs and melodies that are so odious to most mutationalists... is trampled upon in this 'almost-but-not-quite' 'scientific' forum. While most here are by nature eternally 'destined' to compulsively observe a pseudo-science sham of 'mutation'(?#!), I 'compulsively' study the science of a 'Christ-God crucified', because it is (without excuse) greatly inferred by observation in nature.

Thus, being 'TAKEN' by this topic, I 'CHOSE TO' speak of its excellency per se.

(Note the multi-tiered paradox(es), ... God bless and goodnight!)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-26-2002 1:43 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-26-2002 5:02 PM Philip has responded

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 19 of 28 (9012)
04-26-2002 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Philip
04-26-2002 5:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
I 'compulsively' study the science of a 'Christ-God crucified', because it is (without excuse) greatly inferred by observation in nature.

I think it would be interesting to see more of what you mean by the science of a 'Christ-God crucified'- could you expand on some aspects of this that relate to obvservations from nature?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Philip, posted 04-26-2002 5:36 AM Philip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Philip, posted 04-29-2002 12:02 AM Mister Pamboli has responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3136 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 20 of 28 (9080)
04-28-2002 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Raaven4
04-24-2002 3:02 PM


Has faith (then) likewise been peer-to-pressured away stressed?
This message is a reply to:
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Philip
Member (Idle past 2826 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 21 of 28 (9089)
04-29-2002 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mister Pamboli
04-26-2002 5:02 PM


QUOTEI think it would be interesting to see more of what you mean by the science of a 'Christ-God crucified'- could you expand on some aspects of this that relate to obvservations from nature?

[/B][/QUOTE]

HYPOTHESIS: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).
METHODS/MATERIALS: Observation of man, creation (space-time contiuum), creatures/life-forms.
DATA: Severe and ongoing cosmological destructive events occurring in the space-time continuum: pedophiliacs, murderers, dogs vs. cats, nation against nation, sickness, crying, travailing and groaning amidst the creation, etc, etc.. Songs of ‘deliverance’ occur among humans; friendship and ‘praise’ postures, etc. A woman in child-bearing’s ‘hope’ is observed. Marks of destruction and ‘slow death’ all over the cosmos: a severely ‘battered’ moon, ‘Eroding’ systems, ‘Volcanic upheavals’, Lightning and Tornados, etc. The constant aging that goes on without cease. The constant ‘renewals’ that take place within creatures: ‘healings’, ‘loving’, ‘forgiveness’, peace, etc.
RESULTS: Entropy is real. Cell deterioration/aging/mutation (negative as in metastasis, cancer, organ breakdown), and System degeneration takes place. The creature is ‘renewed’ with ‘positive’ events (physical and metaphysical), The creation is renewed: i.e, ‘seasons’, rains, etc.
CONCLUSION: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-26-2002 5:02 PM Mister Pamboli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-29-2002 1:08 AM Philip has not yet responded
 Message 23 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-30-2002 11:46 AM Philip has not yet responded

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 22 of 28 (9097)
04-29-2002 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Philip
04-29-2002 12:02 AM


Thanks for posting Philip. I'm not sure I understand it, but I will read it through carefully and give it some thought.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Philip, posted 04-29-2002 12:02 AM Philip has not yet responded

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 1320 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 23 of 28 (9144)
04-30-2002 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Philip
04-29-2002 12:02 AM


[QUOTE]RESULTS: Entropy is real. Cell deterioration/aging/mutation (negative as in metastasis, cancer, organ breakdown), and System degeneration takes place. The creature is ‘renewed’ with ‘positive’ events (physical and metaphysical), The creation is renewed: i.e, ‘seasons’, rains, etc.
CONCLUSION: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I have a slightly different perspective. First, nothing in what you have written precludes evolution. Also, have you ever considered the possibility that Joshua of Aramathia was a teacher whose life and death inspired people to apply the natural events that they saw occuring around them to the life and death of Joshua. That they imposed this natural concept onto his life and death in order to bring sense and meaning to their own lives. Just a thought.

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Philip, posted 04-29-2002 12:02 AM Philip has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Brad McFall, posted 04-30-2002 1:29 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has responded

    
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3136 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 24 of 28 (9146)
04-30-2002 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
04-30-2002 11:46 AM


What I HAD been trying to say is that a postitive surface of negative entropy may reveal that no matter the frequency table of genes that adaptaions may be encountered by data exploration of the relational data based on free paths more frutifully than Harvard Gould and Lewontin support as gene frequecies change. The software and the specification for this remains unwrit. The concept is available. But who cares when people still see sides. Some progress over our elders is not all money under the table.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-30-2002 11:46 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-30-2002 5:38 PM Brad McFall has not yet responded

    
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 1320 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 25 of 28 (9149)
04-30-2002 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brad McFall
04-30-2002 1:29 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
What I HAD been trying to say is that a postitive surface of negative entropy may reveal that no matter the frequency table of genes that adaptaions may be encountered by data exploration of the relational data based on free paths more frutifully than Harvard Gould and Lewontin support as gene frequecies change. The software and the specification for this remains unwrit. The concept is available. But who cares when people still see sides. Some progress over our elders is not all money under the table.

Brad, why don't you go babble at someone who cares about your rambling?

------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brad McFall, posted 04-30-2002 1:29 PM Brad McFall has not yet responded

    
b0_0
Unregistered


Message 26 of 28 (19748)
10-12-2002 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Raaven4
04-24-2002 3:02 PM


I believe in a total causal determinism. Thus for me every mans actions has a biological reason, known or not. For me, "creation" is just a form of "evolution". Free will does NOT exist; however an illusion exists, an illusion which has a specific purpose which is not the issue right now.
So when you say "There is an infinite number of possibilities that a person can choose", i agree, but i add that the possibility chosen between the others had a specific cause, conscient or inconscient.
This apllies to all forms of causes/effects. Life is just a tissue of determinism...when you choose between coffee or tea in the morning, there is a cause. It may known be to you or not; but what is sure is that it chosen always according to some instinctive laws, that of survival for example.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Raaven4, posted 04-24-2002 3:02 PM Raaven4 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Percy, posted 10-12-2002 7:57 PM You have not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18362
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 27 of 28 (19751)
10-12-2002 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by b0_0
10-12-2002 5:12 PM


And what of quantum physics? Experiments appear to indicate that the indeterminancy is real, not perceived.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by b0_0, posted 10-12-2002 5:12 PM b0_0 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by peke, posted 10-12-2002 10:54 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
peke
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 28 (19755)
10-12-2002 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Percy
10-12-2002 7:57 PM


Ohh... back after all this time... just had some free time to kill

The indeteminancy in quantum physics doesn't matter on any scale that we humans use. Yes, atoms and such can't really be pinpointed in any given place, but we don't see objects as shifting blurs. Also, I believe that the overall randomness would cancel out, because all atoms of the same type act the same way. Just like how if everything moved 'left' a metre, we wouldn't notice.


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 Message 27 by Percy, posted 10-12-2002 7:57 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
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