Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   My apology
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (19795)
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


To all evolutionists:
I have been a fool, and I apologize.
Convinced in my arrogance that no one would have the answers to my questions, i have taking water above my head.
I`m a muslim, and by opposing evolution ive done nothing but created a negative image of Islam.
Ive come to realise that this forum isnt a place for me(my limited knowledge in science isnt gonna contribute to anything), because as Ive stated earlier, religion cannot be proven by science and science cannot be disproven by religion, they co-exist,(If you are religious that is
And to all creationists: If you have been as arrogant as I have been, then think twice.
The best thing that you could do for your religion is by your actions, taking care of your family, pray and and be open-minded.
Indeed, If Allah would have wanted us to reject evolution he wouldnt have made the signs of it so clear that the scientists believe in them with all there heart.
A grateful youth.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Percy, posted 10-13-2002 6:05 PM Delshad has not replied
 Message 3 by nos482, posted 10-13-2002 6:58 PM Delshad has not replied
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 10-13-2002 8:53 PM Delshad has not replied
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-14-2002 4:24 AM Delshad has not replied
 Message 7 by Mammuthus, posted 10-14-2002 4:58 AM Delshad has not replied
 Message 8 by Quetzal, posted 10-14-2002 5:09 AM Delshad has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2 of 19 (19796)
10-13-2002 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


Who are you and what have you done with Delshad?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 19 (19797)
10-13-2002 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Delshad:
To all evolutionists:
I have been a fool, and I apologize.
Convinced in my arrogance that no one would have the answers to my questions, i have taking water above my head.
I`m a muslim, and by opposing evolution ive done nothing but created a negative image of Islam.
Ive come to realise that this forum isnt a place for me(my limited knowledge in science isnt gonna contribute to anything), because as Ive stated earlier, religion cannot be proven by science and science cannot be disproven by religion, they co-exist,(If you are religious that is
And to all creationists: If you have been as arrogant as I have been, then think twice.
The best thing that you could do for your religion is by your actions, taking care of your family, pray and and be open-minded.
A grateful youth.

Negative image of Islam? We don't have any more of a negative image of Islam than we already do for any theistic belief system so you don't have to worry.
Indeed, If Allah would have wanted us to reject evolution he wouldnt have made the signs of it so clear that the scientists believe in them with all there heart.
Belief has nothing to do with it. Belief is irrelevant in this.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (19801)
10-13-2002 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


I'm not fully aware of your entire historyon this site but I commend your honest confesson here. As a creationist I fully agree that the things you listed are far more important than arguing here! I also fully agree that we can't prove that God (Allah) created.
Having said that I don't think you should throw away all creationist comment simply becasue you have found a lack in yourself. Much of the creaitonist comment internationally is very good and supports both the big picture of creation and the details.
I don't agree that the data 'so clearly' points to evoltuion. The data IMO is split quite evenly on the issue. As such it does come back to a faith issue as you have identified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 10-13-2002 9:11 PM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 10-14-2002 6:14 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 19 (19803)
10-13-2002 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
10-13-2002 8:53 PM


Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
I'm not fully aware of your entire historyon this site but I commend your honest confesson here. As a creationist I fully agree that the things you listed are far more important than arguing here! I also fully agree that we can't prove that God (Allah) created.
Of course since you can't prove a negative.
Having said that I don't think you should throw away all creationist comment simply becasue you have found a lack in yourself. Much of the creaitonist comment internationally is very good and supports both the big picture of creation and the details.
I don't agree that the data 'so clearly' points to evoltuion. The data IMO is split quite evenly on the issue. As such it does come back to a faith issue as you have identified.
I don't know about that. At least he is willing to go beyond just accepting blind faith as you appear to do.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 10-13-2002 8:53 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 19 (19826)
10-14-2002 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


Delshad, I am glad you can see this topic the way I do. Please don't leave so soon. You might find something worth learning here. Even from creationists. For myself, I am active in this topic because most Muslims are ignorant about evolution, and Harun Yahya's trying to make creationists out of them. I want to stop him, that is why I use the discussions here to get the important points and learn the weaknesses of what I am trying to do.
Concerning the image of Islam here, I've done worse than you (look back at my suicidal exchange with Wordswordman) but these guys don't give a damn about it, we just go on with the fights. It's okay. There are other Muslims who are (were?) active in this site (Fedmahn, Syamsu) and they have their own views. You don't have to be afraid of giving Islam a bad name here.
If you still have some interest in the debates, don't hesitate to join sometime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 7 of 19 (19829)
10-14-2002 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delshad:
To all evolutionists:
I have been a fool, and I apologize.
Convinced in my arrogance that no one would have the answers to my questions, i have taking water above my head.
I`m a muslim, and by opposing evolution ive done nothing but created a negative image of Islam.
Ive come to realise that this forum isnt a place for me(my limited knowledge in science isnt gonna contribute to anything), because as Ive stated earlier, religion cannot be proven by science and science cannot be disproven by religion, they co-exist,(If you are religious that is
And to all creationists: If you have been as arrogant as I have been, then think twice.
The best thing that you could do for your religion is by your actions, taking care of your family, pray and and be open-minded.
Indeed, If Allah would have wanted us to reject evolution he wouldnt have made the signs of it so clear that the scientists believe in them with all there heart.
A grateful youth.[/B][/QUOTE]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Delshad,
That was a very nice post. But I would encourage you to NOT withdraw from the debate. Rather, if you feel your knowledge of the subject matter is not deep enough ask questions or do some reading. I and many others can recommend books that would give you a grasp of some of the major concepts and arguments involved that would not be so technical as to leave you frustrated. To balance things out, I am sure Tranquility Base could provide you with books or media discussing intelligent design or creationism. And all of us here will make every attempt to answer questions you have. Again I encourage you to stay on.
Sincerely
Mammuthus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 8 of 19 (19831)
10-14-2002 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Delshad
10-13-2002 5:39 PM


Delshad:
There is, of course, no reason to leave the forum. A lack of scientific knowledge and background doesn't by any stretch of the imagination disqualify you from participating here. And fear not, you have not presented a "negative image of Islam". Your initial approach left something to be desired, but it is a common one that isn't unique to Islam.
In fact, your post here in this thread speaks very highly of your personal integrity - it is a rare person who is willing to admit they might have been mistaken. It's an admirable trait.
A suggestion: if you are truly interested in the evidence for evolution (whether you believe it was the tool Allah used to create the amazing diversity of life on the planet or not), then all you need do is ask. Simply ask, and there are many people here who are willing to either answer or point you in the direction of an answer. Try it this way: "I've read (or heard) that there is no natural explanation for X. Is it true? If not, what is the evidence that leads to the idea that X DOES have a natural explanation?" Note the difference between this and "Hah, hah. Evolutionists can't answer X." which was your initial approach. I think you might find the difference in response enlightening. After all, doesn't the Qu'ran advocate seeking wisdom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Delshad, posted 10-13-2002 5:39 PM Delshad has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 9 of 19 (19833)
10-14-2002 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
10-13-2002 8:53 PM


TB writes:

I don't agree that the data 'so clearly' points to evolution. The data IMO is split quite evenly on the issue. As such it does come back to a faith issue as you have identified.
If it were a data issue then the split would be along scientific rather than religious lines, and Creationist websites and publications would spring from people and organizations of many walks of life instead of just fundamentalism. The variety of Creationist views is symptomatic of ignoring real-world data and explains why, for example, yours and wmscott's views are so dramatically different. Come to think of it, you and wmscott were exchanging posts at one point - what ever became of that?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 10-13-2002 8:53 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 19 (19840)
10-14-2002 8:12 AM


Youre right, just leaving here isnt the answer.
Were could I find books or articles in the web giving me a scientifical ground in evolution to build upon , and maybe Tranquility base or someone could show me books or articles arguing for intelligent design or creationism, ill read them with all my heart and perhaps you would answer my questions as time passes.
Sincerely Delshad

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 10-14-2002 8:33 AM Delshad has not replied
 Message 12 by mark24, posted 10-14-2002 9:32 AM Delshad has not replied
 Message 13 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 10-14-2002 9:53 AM Delshad has not replied
 Message 14 by Quetzal, posted 10-14-2002 11:29 AM Delshad has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 11 of 19 (19844)
10-14-2002 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Delshad
10-14-2002 8:12 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Delshad:
Youre right, just leaving here isnt the answer.
Were could I find books or articles in the web giving me a scientifical ground in evolution to build upon , and maybe Tranquility base or someone could show me books or articles arguing for intelligent design or creationism, ill read them with all my heart and perhaps you would answer my questions as time passes.
Sincerely Delshad

********************************
Hi Delshad,
Glad you decided to stay with us here. I would actually suggest reading Darwin's Origin of Species. I prefer the first edition but most book stores carry only the 6th I believe. In any case, the book is readable without an extensive scientific background. Things have changed a lot since Darwin's time but it is not a bad place to start.
Anyone else out there know of a good general book on molecular evolution that is not too technical? I only have primary literature or technical manuals which would not be appropriate.
Hopefully TB and others will make suggestions as well for accessible literature.
Best wishes,
Mammuthus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Delshad, posted 10-14-2002 8:12 AM Delshad has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 12 of 19 (19845)
10-14-2002 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Delshad
10-14-2002 8:12 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Delshad:
Youre right, just leaving here isnt the answer.
Were could I find books or articles in the web giving me a scientifical ground in evolution to build upon , and maybe Tranquility base or someone could show me books or articles arguing for intelligent design or creationism, ill read them with all my heart and perhaps you would answer my questions as time passes.
Sincerely Delshad

Delshad,
Kudos on your opening post
Evolution. By Carl Zimmer I'm told is a good introduction to evolution. If Hanno's listening, he has also authored "At the Water's Edge : Fish With Fingers, Whales With Legs, and How Life Came Ashore but Then Went Back to Sea".
I recommend a search on Amazon, that'll throw up an enormous choice. You can always run your shortlist by us here.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Delshad, posted 10-14-2002 8:12 AM Delshad has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3216 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 13 of 19 (19848)
10-14-2002 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Delshad
10-14-2002 8:12 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Delshad:
Youre right, just leaving here isnt the answer.
Were could I find books or articles in the web giving me a scientifical ground in evolution to build upon , and maybe Tranquility base or someone could show me books or articles arguing for intelligent design or creationism, ill read them with all my heart and perhaps you would answer my questions as time passes.
Sincerely Delshad

Delshad, first off kudos for the excellant first post on this thread. Darwins Ghost by Steve Jones is a very good book in that it recapitulates Darwins Origin of Species in a much more modern (and IMO readable, I do not like late 1800's british lit due to the writing style) style, complete with newer aspects concerning molecular biology. Books by Ernst Mayr (one is "What Evolution Is") are also very good.
From the creationist side, I would stay away from anything from the ICR due to their generally poor scientific content. One decent book from the Intelligent Design point of view is Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe. The book is well written and is targeted towards beginners in biology/biochemistry. Of course, I think that Dr. Behe is in error and have demonstrated several of the problems in his thesis on this board and in others. He does an excellant job of explaination to the layman though, and does pose a few interesting questions concerning the evolution of pathway families that I have discussed with TB on this board. An interesting book is "Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics: Philosophical, Theological, and Scientific Perspectives". It contains writtings from each side of the debate. I have just started the book but will not be able to read it for a while due to other obligations.
Anyway, good luck .
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Delshad, posted 10-14-2002 8:12 AM Delshad has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 14 of 19 (19854)
10-14-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Delshad
10-14-2002 8:12 AM


Delshad: Welcome back! I'm glad you decided to stick around.
I know it is often difficult to get access to actual books, so I'll devote this post to free, on-line resources I consider to be very good general references:
actionbioscience.org website contains a collection of "popular science" articles on evolution written by some of the top scientists in the field.
Evolution and the Fossil Record, the American Geological Institute's excellent "evolution primer".
Origin of Species on-line. To be honest, I found Darwin's book very hard going. This on-line version can help if you want to see what the old man actually wrote. As Mammuthus noted, it is extremely detailed, and can be heavy reading. However, if you're looking for a description of every observation Darwin made in coming up with his theory, this is the place.
Anyway, if you have any questions on any of these articles, please don't hesitate to post them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Delshad, posted 10-14-2002 8:12 AM Delshad has not replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 19 (19862)
10-14-2002 3:15 PM


Thanks you very much for your information and support.
Ill start reading them right away
Sincerely Delshad

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 10-14-2002 3:41 PM Delshad has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024