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Author Topic:   Organized Religion & personal Spirituality
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 130 (198946)
04-13-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by contracycle
04-13-2005 6:39 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
A Muslim gave you a cogent explanation of the princiepls on which their society is organised, and unsruprisingly, considers these principoles to be good ones.
Perhaps I read more into IANAT's posts than was warranted. I didn't read it as merely advocating a way of organizing society -- I read the implication that an Islamic state also have coercive police power to enforce certain behaviors, even when not in themselves disruptive to the well-being of others, even when a significant fraction of the population doesn't agree with the ruling elite's determination of what constitutes proper Islamic "ways". That is what I am arguing against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 6:39 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-13-2005 11:51 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 109 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:02 AM Chiroptera has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 130 (198948)
04-13-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Chiroptera
04-13-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Focus Factors
I read the implication that an Islamic state also have coercive police power to enforce certain behaviors, even when not in themselves disruptive to the well-being of others, even when a significant fraction of the population doesn't agree with the ruling elite's determination of what constitutes proper Islamic "ways".
And you were pretty much dead-on, with the exception that it's not exclusively Islamic. In post 23 IANAT pretty clearly lays out his desire for Christians, Muslims, and Jews to get together to decide on moral laws to which everyone should be held. He excludes atheists from this decision making, on the grounds that they will "want to be legally wild".
I'm not sure what argument Contracycle's having here, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything that was actually posted on the thread.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 04-13-2005 11:28 AM Chiroptera has not replied

AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 130 (199083)
04-13-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by contracycle
04-13-2005 11:01 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
"we do it differently" is not a criticism, idiot.
Stop the personal attacks immediately.
You have been warned in another thread, as well.
Continue and you will have earned a revocation of posting privileges.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 11:01 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:04 AM AdminSchraf has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 130 (199149)
04-14-2005 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Chiroptera
04-13-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
Perhaps I read more into IANAT's posts than was warranted. I didn't read it as merely advocating a way of organizing society -- I read the implication that an Islamic state also have coercive police power to enforce certain behaviors, even when not in themselves disruptive to the well-being of others, even when a significant fraction of the population doesn't agree with the ruling elite's determination of what constitutes proper Islamic "ways". That is what I am arguing against.
Which the west does as well. Western states use coercive police powers to enforce property rights even when a sigfnificant fraction of the population does not agree with the ruling elite.
Pot <> Kettle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 04-13-2005 11:28 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Chiroptera, posted 04-14-2005 3:56 PM contracycle has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 130 (199150)
04-14-2005 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by AdminSchraf
04-13-2005 9:00 PM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
Stop the personal attacks immediately. You have been warned in another thread, as well.
and I told you that the administrators have lost the credibility to declaim such judgements.
quote:
Continue and you will have earned a revocation of posting privileges.
Hear No Evil, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AdminSchraf, posted 04-13-2005 9:00 PM AdminSchraf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by AdminPhat, posted 04-14-2005 5:22 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 114 by AdminSchraf, posted 04-14-2005 7:41 AM contracycle has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 130 (199153)
04-14-2005 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by contracycle
04-14-2005 5:04 AM


Re: Focus Factors
contracycle writes:
and I told you that the administrators have lost the credibility to declaim such judgements.
We may have lost credibility(at least in your eyes) but we have the authority.
Play nice with Dan and his clever alias.
And show Schraff a little respect! She puts up with us, after all!
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-14-2005 02:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:04 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:35 AM AdminPhat has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 130 (199156)
04-14-2005 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by AdminPhat
04-14-2005 5:22 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
We may have lost credibility(at least in your eyes) but we have the authority.
You do not have authority. You merely have power.
quote:
And show Schraff a little respect! She puts up with us, after all!
Schraff doesn't respect engineers, why should I respect her?
Edit: I point out further that if you had been doing your job adequately my intervention would not have been required.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-14-2005 04:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by AdminPhat, posted 04-14-2005 5:22 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-14-2005 9:51 AM contracycle has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 130 (199164)
04-14-2005 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Theocratic possibilities
IANAT writes:
It is my opinion the problem with western society, is this notion of "separation of church and state." This has turned into the situation where religion adjusts to the state, instead of vice versa. This is why Islamic states do not favor this arrangement of separation. Islam is a way of life, as the quote above states. It encompasses all, including state affairs. I believe Iraq democracy will initially start western but move to an Islamic state. We can live in peace together.
So you believe that the western democracies should be theocratic?
And do you really think that there will be peace? What possible scenarios could prevent peace? By peace, I mean spiritually as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 12:49 PM IANAT has not replied

AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 130 (199176)
04-14-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by contracycle
04-14-2005 5:04 AM


Re: Focus Factors
Contracycle, the following statement to Dan:
quote:
"we do it differently" is not a criticism, idiot.
is a clear violation of forum rule #3, which states:
Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."
You agreed to abide by when you signed up to participate in this forum. The rules exist for everyone, not everyone except contracycle.
Abide by the rules or face the consequences.
This message has been edited by AdminSchraf, 04-14-2005 07:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:04 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 9:01 AM AdminSchraf has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 130 (199196)
04-14-2005 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by AdminSchraf
04-14-2005 7:41 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
You agreed to abide by when you signed up to participate in this forum. The rules exist for everyone, not everyone except contracycle.
Then apply them consistently. Respect for IANAT was not demonstrated and what did you do? Bugger all. Twiddled your thimbs.
As I told you, you don't have sufficient credibility to impose such "discipline". All you have is power, like any bully. You may do what you wish, as I have no power.
C'est le guerre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by AdminSchraf, posted 04-14-2005 7:41 AM AdminSchraf has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 8:18 AM contracycle has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 116 of 130 (199205)
04-14-2005 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Responsibility of Religious Leaders
quote:
Westerners' devotion to their whims and invented notions of freedom lead them to disobedience, which renders their personal religion almost like a hobby, subservient to frequently changing whims.
Christianity lost its teeth when it proclaimed that Christians are not under the Law. It is hard to shape spiritual behavior without rules or guidelines. Christianity seems more concerned with recruiting and adding to the flock as opposed to teaching people how to live a spiritual life as a way of life. It's a business.
Since you are in Texas and not an Islamic State, do you have difficulty maintaining your Islamic way of life since the government does not enforce it for you?
quote:
I believe Iraq democracy will initially start western but move to an Islamic state.
I have a feeling they will also. Their country, their choice.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 12:49 PM IANAT has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 130 (199215)
04-14-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by contracycle
04-14-2005 5:35 AM


Re: Focus Factors
You do not have authority. You merely have power.
Iyyyam an anti-christ! Iyyyyam an anar-chist!
I point out further that if you had been doing your job adequately my intervention would not have been required.
He's right on this one, Admins. You really dropped the ball by not pulling accusations of tyranny and barbarism that were never made out of your asses, and then berating people for them.
Fortunately for all of us, Contracycle here was willing to step up to the plate.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:35 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 10:35 AM Dan Carroll has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 130 (199245)
04-14-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Dan Carroll
04-14-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
Fortunately for all of us, Contracycle here was willing to step up to the plate.
Thats right.
After all, authority is merely social, not factual. Anyone can step on up.
And I do NOT see why you should get away with abuse merely because the nominal admins give their tacit consent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-14-2005 9:51 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-14-2005 10:41 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 120 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-14-2005 10:47 AM contracycle has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 130 (199248)
04-14-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by contracycle
04-14-2005 10:35 AM


Re: Focus Factors
And I do NOT see why you should get away with abuse merely because the nominal admins give their tacit consent.
Well, it's only fair. After all, I still don't see why US law is irrelevant to a conversation about US law. And I asked you that ages ago.
But just to be clear... this "abuse" would be all those times I called IANAT a barbaric tyrant, right?
This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 04-14-2005 09:42 AM

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 10:35 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 7:38 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 120 of 130 (199252)
04-14-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by contracycle
04-14-2005 10:35 AM


Dan and Contra real near....
to one of my patent pending paired suspensions.
Needless stupid behaviour and/or needless crankyness, or something like that.
Be calm, be nice, post messages having substance.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 10:35 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by castis, posted 04-14-2005 3:26 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied
 Message 125 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 7:57 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

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