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Author Topic:   Dover science teachers refuse to read ID disclaimer
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 35 of 164 (183455)
02-06-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Well I think you went way overboard. It's *home*schooling, not stateschooling, people's individual liberty goes at home. You might just as well say, people aren't allowed to buy religious books of their social security, and call the police when you see it happen.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:53 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 43 of 164 (183666)
02-07-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by nator
02-06-2005 8:53 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
But... it's at home.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

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 Message 36 by nator, posted 02-06-2005 8:53 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2005 9:26 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 45 of 164 (183671)
02-07-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coragyps
02-07-2005 9:26 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Well dump the whole program then, rather then for the government to decide what is teached in people's homes.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2005 9:26 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by kjsimons, posted 02-07-2005 10:43 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 47 of 164 (183698)
02-07-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by kjsimons
02-07-2005 10:43 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
Yes dump the program, dump public schooling, so the taxes are lower, so people have money left over to organize education shared resource programs themselves. No state funding.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by kjsimons, posted 02-07-2005 10:43 AM kjsimons has not replied

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 Message 50 by mikehager, posted 02-08-2005 5:50 PM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 51 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-08-2005 6:43 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 52 of 164 (185011)
02-14-2005 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Lithodid-Man
02-08-2005 6:43 PM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
I looked up the IDEA program on the web, and it has a definite bent towards being American Native friendly education. It is probable they dropped it like a hot-potato so not to have either Christian-fundamentalists, or nationalist controlfreaks, endanger the status of an American native friendly education program. I think this is just shortsighted of American Natives, cultural destruction is inevitable if you mix with secular government, as past experience has shown. Or rather then shortsighted, it may also be a choice based on poverty.
I'm pretty sure that it carries legal difference for something that happens in the home, in stead of on public property. Government shouldn't control what goes on inside people's homes, that is in the general spirit of a free democracy.
If you drop public education, it would reduce childlabour, because the volume of inane modern education curricula simply transgesses over into childlabour much by any reasonable standard of what constitutes childlabour. That is the proper role of government in education, a regulator, to enforce groundrules of basic humanity.
I think if we would see the rise of some massive private-education consortiums, they would be entirely more reasonable, and more philantropic even, as current Western governments with their incredibly narrowminded progressivism. I shudder to think at some state-of-the-union address by Bill Clinton some years ago. He said that "our twelve-year olds must do better." Such an odd concept *our* twelve-year olds. I don't believe there exists such a thing as our twelve-year olds.
Of course in Europe these kind of things are much worse even. After USA children leave highschool, and get to more private education institutions, the educationlevel of the USA pupil surpasses that of the European in a few years, simply because they actually learn what they want, and not what the government tells them to learn.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 02-14-2005 1:21 AM Syamsu has replied
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 54 of 164 (185021)
02-14-2005 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Arkansas Banana Boy
02-14-2005 1:21 AM


They can try to lawsuit the money out of the government, as they seem to have done successfully in Australia, and Canada.
All in all, at most you are arguing that public education is a neccessary evil for the Native Americans. In my opinion a vastly increased private education sector will pay up the tab for Native American education just as a matter of creating goodwill capital.
A smart move Native Americans are making is to copyright Native American teachings, getting some basis in the private sector. I think that much more cost will go into copyrighted material in the future, which would be relatively more easy to be philantropic with, then paid professionals. Also there is a large contingent of parents and American Natives willing to partly volunteer, so the cost of private sector education can be quite low.
Anyway, I think the basic problem is that this must all go against the Native American mindset, that government can only be trusted in a very limited way. No doubt in some years to come the native friendliness of the education program get's the axe, the "treaties" respecting parental choice in homeschooling found to be illegal.
Maybe the private education sector is not ready yet to take in everybody. Maybe the laws of copyright need to be strengthened further still, before business can invest with security. In any case as far as I can tell the popularity of public education is quite low in general currently.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 02-14-2005 1:21 AM Arkansas Banana Boy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 02-14-2005 3:33 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 75 of 164 (189199)
02-28-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Arkansas Banana Boy
02-14-2005 3:33 AM


I think you fail to see that in a capitalist system the control would be with individuals and families. They would make the decision about what to buy, and they would not choose an education program that is too heavy. And even if they would, the government would be a strong regulator to stop them, where now it is a weak regulator that is much guilty of excitable politicians forcing things on overloaded students.
That is why I brought up child labour, to emphasize what the government's role should be, a regulator.
I have some examples from the Netherlands, where the government education curriculum had to be pulled because of overloading students. Also recently I read in the paper some university-doctor pensioning talking about a mysterious increase in fatigue among students, during his many years as university-doctor.
As the information age develops, information will relatively cost more to other products, and so commercialization of education is inevitable, unless you want to start an economy without money.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 02-14-2005 3:33 AM Arkansas Banana Boy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 02-28-2005 8:13 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 79 of 164 (199331)
04-14-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Arkansas Banana Boy
02-28-2005 8:13 PM


Re: last point first...
It's not about subsidizing education for all, it's about forcing people to learn what they don't want, and not providing what they do want.
I personally would have no problem with it, to participate in a government education voucher scheme, where kids could well.. buy the exactsame curricullum as the Hitler youth. If that's what they want, for an education, then that's what they get. It is entirely different when the government forces the Hitleryouth curriculum on people. Such a scheme may mean that in the USA large sums of money would go to Christian education. Would this mean the goverment establishing a religion? No, because in such a scheme they wouldn't control the curricullum. The theory of evolution is the religion that the goverment actively sponsors, because the government controls the curricullum and puts the theory of evolution in it.
I think many people are mistaken about the demands the government's urge for progress puts on people's lives. I think it is tremendous, while most people see it as limited and reasonable. But again in socialist / folkish Europe these things are much worse then in the USA as far as I can tell.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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