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Author
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Topic: Nobel Prize vs Proof that the Death Penalty MUST kill innocents
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 19 of 236 (198561)
04-12-2005 10:58 AM
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To be a perfect system the death penalty
must be revocable once applied if needed. As soon as someone can show a way to do that I will give my full support to the use of the Death Penalty.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 34 of 236 (198629)
04-12-2005 1:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by nator
04-12-2005 12:42 PM
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Are you sure?
Show me a criminal justice system that is and will always be free of human error and bias, and I'll change my mind on the death penalty. Even if you could find that, it would still not be sufficient IMHO. Your reference to DNA evidence is a perfect example. In amny of those cases there was no human error, no bias but there was still a wrong decision.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by nator, posted 04-12-2005 12:42 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by nator, posted 04-12-2005 1:17 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 38 of 236 (198639)
04-12-2005 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by nator
04-12-2005 1:17 PM
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Re: Are you sure?
Obviously there was huge error, or bias, because an innocent person was accused and sent to jail. Not given the capabilities at the time.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by nator, posted 04-12-2005 1:17 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by nator, posted 04-12-2005 1:26 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 41 of 236 (198644)
04-12-2005 1:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by nator
04-12-2005 1:26 PM
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Re: Are you sure?
They were mistakes. I agree with that, but not that they were errors. The problem from my perspective is that there is simply no way to ever be sure that there are no mistakes, that the decision is not wrong. This is a pretty easy stance to take for a believer I admit. I am quite sure that there will be an ultimate judge, one who will not make mistakes and will not be wrong. In the meantime, let's do away with the death penalty. Let's stick with a system where we at the least have an option for correcting mistakes we may have made.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by nator, posted 04-12-2005 1:26 PM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 1:40 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 44 of 236 (198650)
04-12-2005 1:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Silent H
04-12-2005 1:40 PM
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Re: Are you sure?
Let me ask you this straight out... Do you believe that Dahmer actually killed those people, and that this is not a possibly mistaken belief? I don't know. I may well have a belief in the matter, may even say I know the answer. However it is not sufficient. The death penalty is just irreversable. Once applied it cannot be revoked. So why apply it when there are other options? AbE: This is not about evidence or even knowledge. Both are simply irrelevant when we are talking about the death penalty. This message has been edited by jar, 04-12-2005 11:45 AM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 1:40 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 2:11 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 236 (198675)
04-12-2005 2:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by Silent H
04-12-2005 2:11 PM
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You are free to believe whatever you want.
I have always tried to make it clear that I can only speak from my personal position. However you can be sure that I believe there is no valid reason for a death penalty. I accept a court system because there is some need for arbitration between individuals and between individuals and society. Granted, you cannot return lost time. If there was a way to recompense someone for lost time or false imprisonment then I would favor examining it, but TTBOMK, there is none. But you can return freedom. Someone imprisoned can be released.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 2:11 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 3:27 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 52 of 236 (198706)
04-12-2005 3:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Silent H
04-12-2005 3:27 PM
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Re: You are free to believe whatever you want.
Could be but I don't think so. There are a few facts here. One, the death penalty once implemented cannot be reversed. Second, there are other options available. Beyond that I see little merit in the discussion. Period.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 3:27 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 3:39 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 74 of 236 (198963)
04-13-2005 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Silent H
04-12-2005 3:39 PM
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I believe your misunderstanding of my position
may revolve around a belief that I think the death penalty wrong from some moral or philosophical base. That is simply not the case. I oppose the death penalty because it is irreversible. It has nothing to do with whether I believe someone deserves to die, whether or not I believe someone is guilty, but solely with the single issue of reversibility. If we have a scientific theory wrong, it can be changed. If we put someone in prison, they can be released. If we execute someone, we cannot later restore them to life. It is as simple as that. The Death Penalty is irreversible. Once applied it cannot be changed, rescinded or revised. It is permanent. That unique characteristic is sufficient IMHO to make it a special case.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Silent H, posted 04-12-2005 3:39 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 1:20 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 77 of 236 (198974)
04-13-2005 1:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Silent H
04-13-2005 1:20 PM
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Re: I believe your misunderstanding of my position
By the way, maybe I don't remember right, but weren't you for pulling the plug on schiavo? Yup.
No, that simply cannot logically be the case. Build an argument with that which leads to "death penalty is wrong" without using a moral assumption. It has nothing to do with whether the death penalty is wrong or not, it's irreversible. So it shouldn't be used. It's really quite simple. The death penalty is irreversible, so it should not be used.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 1:20 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 2:34 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 80 of 236 (198982)
04-13-2005 2:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Silent H
04-13-2005 2:34 PM
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No idea where you're wandering.
Yup. What does one have to do with the other?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 2:34 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 2:54 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 82 of 236 (198986)
04-13-2005 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
04-13-2005 2:54 PM
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Re: Cute topic titles don't make you right
But you are claiming that for a capital case you cannot accept the ability to be certain (it is "irrelevant"), which you had to accept in the Schiavo case... and that lady didn't kill anyone and there were people wanting to take care of her! Yup. There is no relationship between the two incidents. In the Schiavo case the courts determined they were carrying out her wishes. In addition, the preponderence of evidence indicated that she wasn't around anyway. She died long ago. In a death sentence case we are carrying out the wishes of other than the person being executed. Two different situations with no parallel at all.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 2:54 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 3:14 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 85 of 236 (198992)
04-13-2005 3:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Silent H
04-13-2005 3:14 PM
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Re: Cute topic titles don't make you right
And by the way, there have been killers that not only confessed but asked to be put to death. Indeed some had to fight their own lawyers and the courts to have it done. Yup. No relationship with a death penalty. I would have no problem with their wishes carried out. If they wish to be executed then fine. I have no problem with that. If there is someone who is convicted of a capital crime and their desire is to be executed, then okay. Do it. If later evidence is found that shows they made a wrong decision I will grieve but not complain.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 3:14 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 4:15 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 89 of 236 (199000)
04-13-2005 4:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by Silent H
04-13-2005 4:15 PM
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Re: Cute topic titles don't make you right
For the future, could you please stay out of threads I start if you have no intention of making a positive contribution I'm sorry I have been unable to make myself understod by you. But I see a clear distinction between the death penalty and the other examples you have brought up.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 4:15 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 169 of 236 (199480)
04-14-2005 10:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 164 by Silent H
04-14-2005 6:07 PM
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Hey Holmes
May all go well. My prayers will go with you.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by Silent H, posted 04-14-2005 6:07 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 185 of 236 (202697)
04-26-2005 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 184 by Silent H
04-26-2005 3:26 PM
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Re: Back... sort of.
Good GOD. He got a brain transplant and he's become whatever.  Really glad you're back. We missed you.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by Silent H, posted 04-26-2005 3:26 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 186 by Silent H, posted 04-27-2005 4:16 AM | | jar has not replied |
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