Existence of Demons (and Angels)

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And not only do I agree, but I might point out that there are more believers than a few freaked out whackos.

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Again, science is not the only arbitrator in all minds. To some, it is Gospel, however.

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More power to you.

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...and here we have a fine example of the logical fallacy of "Communal Reinforcement".Angeldust's beliefs are positively reinforced and encouraged by a fellow believer, Phatboy. Disbelief is also discouraged and science and rationality are discounted by Phatboy.Well done, Phat! Great example.

Maybe you could help.What newspaper was the story published in?What are some key names?Perhaps the year it happened?

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OK, but what's more parsimonious about the idea of hallucinations?

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Uh, we know that people hallucinate?We can induce hallucinations of all kinds through various means. We can even induce hallucinations while scanning people's brains to see which parts are active.People have reported similar sorts of hallucinations when they were caused by similar things. Not always identical, but quite similar.For example, a report of hypnogigic hallucination or generally has some similar features: A very good scientific page on sleep paralysis which includes the research you are asking for]1) They are associated with sleep
2) Paralysis upon waking
3) Pressure on chest
4) Cannot speak
5) The feeling of an intruder, often malevolent
6) Intense feeling of dreadThese feelings are common to people having these hallucinations.On the other hand, there is nothing parsimonious at all about "intelligent beings who put all their considerable malevolent genius into creating illusions to deceive the human race."

It is true that I am positively reinforcing her beliefs. I suppose that I am not being a detached, logical and rational observer, am I?I do not dismiss science and rationality except when every attempt is made to quench someones faith through use of same.I gotta stick up for what I believe, as do you.

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It is true that I am positively reinforcing her beliefs.

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Yes, indeed you are.

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I suppose that I am not being a detached, logical and rational observer, am I?

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No, you aren't.

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I do not dismiss science and rationality except when every attempt is made to quench someones faith through use of same.

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Nobody is using science to quench anyone's faith.If knowledge must be avoided in order to keep someone's faith intact, then it's not a very good kind of faith, is it? One that promotes ignorance?

OK Good point. I have been accused of ignoring facts and sticking with beliefs...which I occasionally do.It is all probably a lot less spectacular than I imagine, anyway.I DO hold fast to my beliefs, however. It will take more than human logic and wisdom to change my worldview.Maybe an antipsychotic drug will do the trick,eh? *ponders what was said...* "Away from me Satan! Jesus, please bless Schraf and Faith and...*pause* even Rrhain!"This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-17-2005 07:01 AM

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OK Good point. I have been accused of ignoring facts and sticking with beliefs...which I occasionally do.

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It is all probably a lot less spectacular than I imagine, anyway.

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I DO hold fast to my beliefs, however. It will take more than human logic and wisdom to change my worldview.

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Well, then, as long as you understand that they are personal beliefs.

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*ponders what was said...* "Away from me Satan! Jesus, please bless Schraf and Faith and...*pause* even Rrhain!"

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You know, if you understand the reason why Rrhain presented you with that picture gallery, and you are still disturbed about it, you are just confirming his point.

How? You do it by testing and the scientific method is the best methid we have for that. The misconception among believers that their beliefs about the world, based solely on opinion, are somehow equitable to discovered verifiable fact is a gulf between superstitous theism and realism that perhaps cannot be crossed.You may believe that you have in demons and angels or leprechuans and smurfs or pink unicorns and flying away on Pegasus, but until you can provide some test or verifiable observation, you're misguided if you think anyone else should take you seriously. Absolutely not. I know hallucinations exist, having expierenced them and science having tested them. Hypnagogic hallucinations can be triggered in a controlled enviroment. Demons and angels and leprechuans and all the rest of that rot have been talked about for ages and not one iota of evidence has been found for their existence. So, unless evodence is presented for these entities, I will continue to dismiss them and it is in no way a priori. Show me some evidence and I will accept it. If you have read about hypnagogia much, you are aware that those who expierence it often think they are awake and the feeling of being choked or being unable to breath is common feature of such hallucinations. Well, we know hypnagogia exists, as I stated above. If the spirit world were to be similarly documented then your question might have merit. What you are asking is analagous to saying "How would we know whether children's parents sometimes take a bite of a cookie that was left for Santa on Christmas eve or if Santa actually did it?" We can safely answer that with, "There is no evidence for the existence of Santa, while there is ample evidence for that sort of playful, festive deception on the part of parents". I am not assuming the answer, as described above. What you really can't do is answer such questions completely subjectively and expect them to be accepted or correct.

discernment is not the most joyous of things as it seems. because then you know who is out to get you and they tend to breathe down your neck. it's obnoxious. oh yeah. and the old lady who still lives in my house. she's not out to get me but her need for attention really creeps me out. especially when she used to fault my alarm.

i met a man once (i have described him before) who was involved in the new age movement until he encountered a demon. he immediately joined the catholic church and became a priest and an exorcist. (i guess he saw a movie or two and thought that was the way to go. holy water and stuff lol) after years of service he encounted demon(s) in the church hierarchy. so he left the church and became a zoroastrian. one sun god is as good as any other. he's a nifty guy.

i've heard of christians who play with snakes, but none who drink poison. arach once suggested to one particular individual that if she really believed that every word of the book was perfect that she should go drink some bleach. she declined the offer.

You mean how do I know about the character of demons? I guess there's a lot that goes into that. Can you ask the question more specifically?

They don't require the presumption of an extant, undetectable-by-science "spirit world", inhabited by spooks and spectres. It's more parsimonious because that's the definition of parsimony - the rejection of the model with the most new, untestable, unneeded entities. You're "unnecessarily multipyling entities." That's the exact opposite of parsimony. Sure it does. If we have two competing explanations that explain the same phenomenon, and one does so with nothing more than what we already know exists, and one can't do so without presuming the existence of a bunch of new stuff we've never seen and can't detect, why would we choose the second one? Why would we choose the model with the unneeded chocolate sprinkles? Yes, there is. It doesn't require the ad-hoc presumption of a "spirit world" from no other evidence. That's parsimony. In other words, instead of being hallucinations, it's all demons who are so cunning they want to make themselves look exactly like hallucinations. Uh-huh.You know what? It's not gravity that holds me in my chair. Gravity works for everybody else, but not me, because I'm special. What holds me in my chair are a million tiny invisible angels beating their wings and pushing down on my shoulders. When I jump off of something, they push me so hard that I accellerate at exactly 9.8 meters/sec^2, just like a normal falling object, because they don't want anyone to know that I'm special, and that normal gravity doesn't apply to me. (It's a secret. Try not to pass it around.)Hey, if you won't apply parsimony, you'll believe anything. You'll pretty much have to. The principle of parsimony is that grounds. You might know it as "Occam's Razor", and it cuts away unnecessary entities like "sprits" and "demons" when we can arrive at explanations that don't require their ad-hoc insertion. Man, what a world of fear you must live in, where spirits and demons lurk in every corner, waiting to plunder your immortal soul. Do you still have to have your dad check under you bed for boogymen, too? Nobody who does gets anywhere with that, because there's no consistency to any of the reports. Why do you suppose that is? Because people are making this shit up. If there really was a spirit world, or power in the occult or whatever flavor of the month baloney, you'd be able to head down to the corner franchise McSorcerer and order spells and a cheeseburger. Oil companies would hire dowsers instead of geologists. There'd be a Federal Bureau of Prescience telling the President what was going to happen tomorrow.Instead what we have are magnetic charm bracelets and shysters at county fairs. Failed CIA remote viewing programs and myths about "psychics" solving crimes. Supermarket tabloids and Miss Cleo "keepin it real." In other words the supernatural would be a revolutionary industry if it actualy existed, not the realm of con-artists, entertainers, and medical quackery.

Where do you find a zoroastrian church anyway??I believe the part about demons in the heirarchy!In my belief, demons exist and are more likely to bother high ranking people such as Presidents and Popes rather than to possess the neighbor who then is "out to get you".I don't go looking for demons, however. That would be as ludicrous as looking for UFO's, whom I believe to actually be demonic manifestations in the documented cases.
After all, in the context of my belief, Jesus is the Lord of the Universe. Why then, would UFO aliens staunchly avoid mentioning Him?

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I know what's real and what is a hallucination...

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How? You do it by testing and the scientific method is the best methid we have for that. The misconception among believers that their beliefs about the world, based solely on opinion, are somehow equitable to discovered verifiable fact is a gulf between superstitous theism and realism that perhaps cannot be crossed.

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Some things can't be tested. That puts us all at a disadvantage but there it is.

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You may believe that you have in demons and angels or leprechuans and smurfs or pink unicorns and flying away on Pegasus, but until you can provide some test or verifiable observation, you're misguided if you think anyone else should take you seriously.

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Some will some won't. I don't worry about whether all take me seriously or not. Those who understand understand. That's the way it is.

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What "science" interprets as hallucination may or may not be. It may be the spirit world. You'd never know as you rule out the possibility a priori.

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Absolutely not. I know hallucinations exist, having expierenced them and science having tested them. Hypnagogic hallucinations can be triggered in a controlled enviroment. Demons and angels and leprechuans and all the rest of that rot have been talked about for ages and not one iota of evidence has been found for their existence.

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There's tons of evidence, just not physical evidence, and since you discount or reinterpret all the witness evidence it might as well not exist for you, but evidence it is nevertheless, however fraught with difficulties of interpretation and sorting it out from hallucinations as you say and so on.Of course there is such a thing as a hallucination and I've had a few and I know the difference. You don't have to believe me. It's a free country.

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So, unless evodence is presented for these entities, I will continue to dismiss them and it is in no way a priori. Show me some evidence and I will accept it.

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The evidence is all witness evidence. If you don't find it compelling there's nothing I can do about that, you will as you say continue to dismiss it. End of story.

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In the one where I was being choked I was awakened out of a sound sleep. In the others I was wide awake.

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If you have read about hypnagogia much, you are aware that those who expierence it often think they are awake and the feeling of being choked or being unable to breath is common feature of such hallucinations.

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I've had very distinct hypnagogic experiences, the paralysis and so on, at many times in my life. This one was not a hypnagogic experience. I was SOUND asleep, not in twilight sleep at all. The sensation of something gripping my throat woke me up. I tried to speak and couldn't get the words out clearly, but thinking the words caused the sensation to release. This was not like that feeling of paralysis that comes with hypnagogic states where you simply can't move a muscle, can't act. It wasn't that I couldn't act from my own paralysis as there was no paralysis, it was that something was gripping my throat. Again, I know the difference.

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How would you know if the hypnagogic state produces hallucinations or is a state in which a person is more open to the spirit world?

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Well, we know hypnagogia exists, as I stated above. If the spirit world were to be similarly documented then your question might have merit.

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Oh it's documented tremendously, but a certain prejudice causes people to dismiss the evidence.

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What you are asking is analagous to saying "How would we know whether children's parents sometimes take a bite of a cookie that was left for Santa on Christmas eve or if Santa actually did it?" We can safely answer that with, "There is no evidence for the existence of Santa, while there is ample evidence for that sort of playful, festive deception on the part of parents".

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Silly analogy. Demons are acknowledged throughout history by all peoples. Santa is known to be an invention.

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You can't answer such questions by merely assuming the answer.

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I am not assuming the answer, as described above. What you really can't do is answer such questions completely subjectively and expect them to be accepted or correct.

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There's no other way to answer them so take it or leave it. Your leaving it is to be expected.