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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 106 of 303 (199953)
04-17-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
04-17-2005 5:26 PM


Re: Demon stories
No I don't conclude there is no way of obtaining physical evidence - how can I without seeing the future?
Maybe 100 years in the future it will turn out that they are odd EMC distortions or something like that, who know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 5:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 6:15 PM CK has replied

Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 107 of 303 (199955)
04-17-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
04-17-2005 5:37 PM


Re: Deceptive painters?
It can be found in Kant's analysis of beauty,asthetics, taste and teleology. I didnt bring that text to the coffe shop this evening so I'll have to give you the reference later.
I included the painter only because the the natural purpose of bioreproduction is NOT something I have ever seen a painter capture, though we try to talk about this here all the time. I had just noticed this "fact" in Kant this afternoon and it gave me pause to wonder if Lysenko might not have read this passage also when it comes to grafting trees. Dobshanky might have read it too. Any way the passage really showed that modern evolutionists somehow get blind chance as reality IF the deny the transcendental use of vanity. That seems to be the mistake in concluding to mental illness when (before) the practical reason had ALREADY informed the reason purely but because of a posteriori vanity than no one had yet found a chance mechanism to reach as such ,the understanding of an intelligent nouemon. None of this complex thought is necessary for a painter to systematically put colors in places say opposite to the physiological relation of colors (purpleyellow) in such a way to cause the viewer to mis"see" the canvas.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 04-17-2005 04:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 5:37 PM Faith has not replied

Arkansas Banana Boy
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 303 (199956)
04-17-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Brad McFall
04-17-2005 5:32 PM


Brrrrrr
Somewhere a well off man in his chalet, who happens to be watercoloring a rendition of the trout he caught that morning, just had an unexpected chill.
Nice take on experience.
ABB
ill experienced demon watcher and Brad fan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Brad McFall, posted 04-17-2005 5:32 PM Brad McFall has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 303 (199958)
04-17-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Arkansas Banana Boy
04-17-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Brrrrrr
Well, both of you guys are over my head, but carry on. Maybe I'll get some of it eventually.
-------
I know there are demons but I really really really do not want to see one. I'm not sure I could stand the shock of seeing a real angel either but I know I can do without seeing a real demon. An apparition is enough already, but at least it looked like a human being.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 05:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Arkansas Banana Boy, posted 04-17-2005 5:57 PM Arkansas Banana Boy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Brad McFall, posted 04-17-2005 6:10 PM Faith has not replied

Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 110 of 303 (199960)
04-17-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
04-17-2005 6:02 PM


Re: Brrrrrr
its an illusion of the color blue this time but could be Maxwell demon in its falsity. At worst it is a delusion. I know that because somehow the federal govt doesnt know this and has me up for recertificaion in a category that is unlikely to recover.
quote:
I do not personally know anyone who has physically seen demons
in the thread head.
The experience of calling someone mentally ill has nothing to do with demons or angels as far as I know except for a hedge on Maxwell. It has to do with the failure of reason to incorporate a duty fullfilled already. I wont go anyfurther off topic. I just didnt want KURL OK? to take the better off what doesnt exist.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 04-17-2005 05:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 6:02 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 303 (199962)
04-17-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by CK
04-17-2005 5:41 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
I can't show you something that is by its nature invisible, I can't make the invisible visible, therefore we must conclude that there are no invisible beings, right?
====
No we conclude that there is no evidence for those invisible beings.
====
That would be fine except that you DO take the next step of concluding that there are none from this lack of evidence. If you simply recognized that there is no way to have any physical evidence then the question would remain open, but it doesn't appear to. // However, again, there's a ton of historical evidence, witness evidence...
=====
No I don't conclude there is no way of obtaining physical evidence - how can I without seeing the future?
But NOW there is no physical evidence to be had and the point is that presumably that should leave the question open about the reality of invisible spirits since there's no way to judge.
quote:
Maybe 100 years in the future it will turn out that they are odd EMC distortions or something like that, who know?
And maybe you'll encounter a spirit being in the future and need to rethink a few things, who knows?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by CK, posted 04-17-2005 5:41 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by CK, posted 04-17-2005 6:20 PM Faith has replied
 Message 115 by crashfrog, posted 04-17-2005 10:28 PM Faith has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 112 of 303 (199963)
04-17-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
04-17-2005 6:15 PM


Re: Demon stories
No it leaves it opens that SOMETHING may be occuring - the Spirit bit is you trying to place it within a christian framework, a step further than we need at the present.
quote:
And maybe you'll encounter a spirit being in the future and need to rethink a few things, who knows?
Ah...that old chestnut...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 6:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 6:45 PM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 303 (199967)
04-17-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by CK
04-17-2005 6:20 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
No it leaves it opens that SOMETHING may be occuring - the Spirit bit is you trying to place it within a christian framework, a step further than we need at the present.
Not at all, it would simply be to recover how the entire world has thought about these things up until recently, and most parts of the world even now.
I really wanted to find some pictures of demons online, as they are quite common in Hinduism and Asian religions, but I couldn't find much. However, there's certainly a lot of information about demons on the web, and plenty of testimony to belief in them from all over the world. Of course many are regarded as "gods" and this is in fact the REAL "Christian framework" as the Bible clearly identifies them all as Satan's minions.
Anyway, for your entertainment, a few references:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Perhaps the first fact that strikes one who approaches the study of this subject is the astonishing universality and antiquity of demonology, of some belief in the existence of demons or evil spirits, and of a consequent recourse to incantations or other magical practices."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Demonology
=======
Here's a site on gods and goddesses around the world, quite a list. All of these according to Biblical theology are demonic entities given power over the human race because of the Fall, the disobedience of our first parents in Eden -- which is the reason Jesus came to die for us. You know the line from the Christmas Carol "...to save us all from Satan's power when we had gone astray, oooh tidings of comfort and joy..."
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm
=======
Somebody's demonology site:
Demonology: List of Demons, Devils, Monsters & Evil Spirits

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by CK, posted 04-17-2005 6:20 PM CK has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 114 of 303 (200015)
04-17-2005 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
04-17-2005 5:31 PM


Well, the point was that ADULTS have believed in demons going way back.
Personally, I don't think you reach adulthood until you put childish foolishness like boogymen firmly in the past.
Children believe in Santa but adults don't, and children believe because they are told Santa is real, not because they have experienced Santa, but the adults who believe in demons have experienced demons or what they consider to be demons.
The thing is, the adults who believe in demons have less evidence than the children who believe in Santa. Santa, after all, leaves evidence of his passing - why, I remember the Christmas that Santa left me the awesomest Transformer of them all, Jetfire. If there's no Santa, then where did I get all these presents?
It really is a whole nother subject.
It's the exact same subject. Adulthood doesn't bestow on you amazing mental abilities to discern truth from lies, all you have to do is look around yourself at our society to see that. Children have exactly as much evidence - more so - for their belief in Santa as you do for demons. Now, of course you reply that everybody knows that Santa doesn't exist, but everybody knows that demons don't exist, too. Except for you. Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 5:31 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Ben!, posted 04-18-2005 2:58 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 115 of 303 (200017)
04-17-2005 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
04-17-2005 6:15 PM


But NOW there is no physical evidence to be had and the point is that presumably that should leave the question open about the reality of invisible spirits since there's no way to judge.
Since our conclusions from evidence are always tentative, isn't the question always left open? Isn't every question always left open when your conclusions are only held provisionally?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 6:15 PM Faith has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 116 of 303 (200021)
04-17-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
04-17-2005 1:50 PM


Re: Anecdotes away!
i have no idea. this guy was in one of my brother's classes last semester. he has an unbelievable presence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 04-17-2005 1:50 PM Phat has not replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 117 of 303 (200032)
04-18-2005 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by crashfrog
04-17-2005 10:24 PM


Adulthood doesn't bestow on you amazing mental abilities to discern truth from lies
Well that's not quite it--it's the distinction between reality and illusion. And actually, adulthood DOES bestow upon you amazing mental abilities to discern reality from illusion. That's part of cognitive development.
I think Faith is right in making a fundamental distinction between children and adults, especially when it comes to the distinction between what is reality and what is not. Children are notoriously bad at this discernment.
The fact that children believe in Santa Claus does not equate to adults believing in demons. Children have imaginary friends and engage in "pretend play" routinely. If adults engage in the same behavior, it is seen as "abnormal" and a problem.
So overall, I think Faith has a point. The testimony of many people is evidence. As scientists, that evidence can't just be hand-waved away. It has to be explained rigorously, and while we certainly have lots of ideas and evidence that the underlying cause of these experiences is non-mystical, we can't demonstrate it rigorously enough to "answer" the evidence in question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 04-17-2005 10:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:36 AM Ben! has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 118 of 303 (200034)
04-18-2005 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Ben!
04-18-2005 2:58 AM


And actually, adulthood DOES bestow upon you amazing mental abilities to discern reality from illusion. That's part of cognitive development.
Is it? The testimony of adults here, trying to pass off make-believe as reality, causes me to doubt that. Maybe you haven't been here very long, but if you stick around, you'll see more than your share of adults that can't tell the difference between reality and illusion.
The fact that children believe in Santa Claus does not equate to adults believing in demons.
In either case its a manifest failure to distinguish fantasy from reality. And you don't really have a basis to assert that children have trouble with the reality thing. I'll get to that.
Children have imaginary friends and engage in "pretend play" routinely.
Adults believe in demons and angels and that their dead relatives (but only the good ones) watch over them. I don't really see the difference.
If adults engage in the same behavior, it is seen as "abnormal" and a problem.
Unless those imaginary friends are called "gods", and that pretend play occurs inside a church. Adults don't play make-believe any differently than children do; they just change the names and playgrounds.
Children are notoriously bad at this discernment.
You don't really have a basis for coming to that conclusion beyond the a priori assumption that the "supernatural" experiences of children are fantasy. Then you turn around and assert that children simply can't tell the difference, even though you're not in a position to actually know they can't.
The testimony of many people is evidence. As scientists, that evidence can't just be hand-waved away.
But we can hand-wave it away when its children we're talking about? To conclude that the reports of children are without merit, we need to conclude that they're bad at distinguishing reality from fantasy. But in order to make that conclusion, we have to assume that the reports of children are without merit.
What basis is there to refuse to extend the same logic to adults? Apparently, adults play as much pretend as children, and have the same trouble, for the most part, distinguishing fantasy from reality. (I don't really see how this can be refuted given the prevalence of religion, superstition, and voting Republican.) It's inconsistent to reject children's testimony of Santa Claus on a basis of confusion of fantasy and reality, and not extend that same rejection to adults, given that the same confusion applies to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Ben!, posted 04-18-2005 2:58 AM Ben! has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 303 (200059)
04-18-2005 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-17-2005 5:08 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
I am very sure that you cannot create anything in anybody's mind like what I'm describing.
Why are you very sure?
"I just am" is not an answer.
quote:
You no doubt can elicit hallucinations that are products of the mind. But it is also possible that in the process of stimulating the brain you could cause the kind of state that makes a person receptive to spirit input and you'd have no way to know the difference.
What spirits? Show me the spirits.
Unless you can show me the spirits, you are just inventing a completely uneccessary fantastical, hocus-pocus scenario that fits into your mythology.
I suppose that you also believe, as religious people did in the past, that people with schizophrenia and other mental illnesses are possessed by demons, right?
quote:
Or you might, but since you wouldn't be open to such phenomena you wouldn't be prepared to recognize the difference.
Well, show me the demons, angels, or any evidence whatsoever for this spirit world that only religious people say exists and I would be happy to accept that this may be what is happening.
If you cannot show me any evidence, then you are just positing unsupported magical explanations where none are needed.
Yes, everything that happens could be caused by demons. In fact, I could actually be possessed by a demon right now, except that the demon doesn't want to be detected, so it maintains my behavior and thoughts to be exactly what would be normal for me to do.
quote:
I wouldn't suspect demon possession unless there were symptoms that suggested it, such as the rages of the mentally disturbed man I was talking about.
But why wouldn't you expect it? How would you know the difference? Wasn't that your point?
Also, are you really saying that you think that mental illness is really demonic posession?
If so, then wow, you really do live in the Dark Ages in your mind. It must be terrifying to have the boogeyman lurking around every corner.
Which explanation assumes the most unneeded factors?
quote:
There's no need to seek any explanation for normal behavior. It's the unusual experiences that are the subject of this thread that make demonic activity a reasonable explanation.
You didn't answer my question, though.
You are the one trying to say that, given that people do have hallucinations that are products of their minds, they could also have real experiences with demonic forces which are not products of their minds, and you say that we couldn't tell the difference.
I gave an example of exactly the same scenario above, only with "normal" behavior, then asked
Which is more parsimonious;
1) That I am not possessed by a demon and am functioning as I generally do, or
2) that I am possessed by a demon which is making me function as I normally do?
Your point is that we cannot know the difference, right? Well, my example is logically the same as yours.
quote:
I disagree. Science developed precisely because it was able to prove many things.That's what empirical observation, experimentation, replication and the test of falsification are all about.
Nothing in science is ever "proven", like in the case of mathematics. You never get The Correct Answer in science. Nothing in science is uncorrectable. That's why we have falsifiability and tentativity as main tenets.
As long as you mean "prove" as in "provisionally accept", we are on the same page.
quote:
But it only applies reliably to physical events that are predictable, measurable, continuously observable in the present.
Faith, it is simply not true that science only applies to "events that are continuously observable in the present", and it has been explained to you why it is not true many times over. It will not become true just because you wish it to be. It is, however, off topic for this thread so I will not attempt to explain it to you again here.
quote:
When we get into spiritual things, mental things, unreplicable events and the like,
Why do you think that "mental things" are unreplicable"?
What do you think research psychologists do all day?
Of course, since you cannot show me any evidence of "spirit things", we can hardly "repeat" an observation that we don't have in the first place, can we?
quote:
Some MAY be merely hallucinations, some not.
How do you know if they aren't hallucinations?
quote:
That's the question, isn't it? -- how COULD one know for sure.
Well, then, since we have real evidence that people can, and do, have hallucinations that are products of their minds, and no evidence at all that any kind of spirit world exists, it is more parsimonious to conclude that people are having hallucinations that are products of their minds, right?
quote:
I think there are cases where you couldn't.
If there are such cases, then wouldn't it be more accurate to say "we don't know what is causing this" rather than making the huge leap to your particular magical notions of what it could be?
quote:
Oh, many many accounts of such occurrences over the centuries. Jesus dealt with demons, and the people certainly knew they were demons when they brought their children to Him to cast them out. In fact there were Jewish exorcists of the time. The phenomena have been recognized everywhere until relatively recently.
Yeah.
Are you going to be drinking poison any time soon, Faith? The Bible says you should be able to do so without harm.
After all, everything in the Bible is 100% true, right?
Come on, this isn't evidence, it's stories.
quote:
Up until recently I believe the parsimonious interpretation of certain kinds of phenomena would have been demonic activity rather than hallucinations because they were taken for granted. Now they are denied so hallucinations have become the parsimonious explanation.
We have E V I D E N C E of people having hallucinations that come from their brains. We can induce them.
We have no evidence for the boogeyman.
quote:
(snip)...I remember I had to reread that sentence many times before I actually understood that he was saying that demons might be the explanation for some phenomena and that psychology is barking up the wrong tree. That's all he said. He said it in passing, in the middle of discussing some literary production or other, I don't remember what. Or actually, it may have been somebody else quoting him, too bad I can't remember better. Very very startling.
Why should I care what this guy thinks? He was a literary critic, not a brain researcher.
quote:
We prefer the psychological paradigm, that's all, but there's no way to show that it is REALLY "all there is to" some phenomena.
Nobody is saying that we can ever know that is REALLY is all there is.
However, you have not provided any evidence for a spirit world, only stories, and I do have good evidence that hallucinations can be caused only by people's brains.
quote:
Yes, and I took acid a couple times and the walls melted and the lights exploded into crystalline patterns and I knew it was a hallucination. HOWEVER, SOME people took acid and believed that they had found "God" and a "higher consciousness." And that is a real possibility it seems to me, that drugs can connect a person to a spiritual reality that is ordinarily not experienced.
Or a spiritual unreality, just like the unreality of the walls melting.
Don't you see the incredible bias you have, Faith?
When the walls are melting during an acid trip, you dismiss it as a chemically-induced hallucination, but when someone "finds God" during an acid trip, you automatically consider it to be "real".
Why can't ALL of it be a chemically-induced hallucination, INCLUDING the spiritual feelings?
quote:
Well the second idea is silly as NOBODY claims any of it is going on in the real physical world. But if someone described seeing an angel or demon under LSD I personally would consider the possibility of its being a real angel or demon, depending on the description given.
LOL! You have an incredible double standard. Any "evidence" which supports your belief, you accept, anything that doesn't, you discard.
quote:
I really do NOT believe, however, that one can hallucinate voices with such clarity or see apparitions with such clarity and they not be real.
Why not?
It is very well documented that people can have very real-seeming hallucinations, and in a much more awake state than you were.
Schizophrenics have hallucinations that are extremely real, with very clear voices telling them things, and they can also have very vivid visual hallucinations.
Similarly, I had a friend who was working for several days around the clock to finish a project. He had been awake almost constantly for several days. He was in the lab late at night, printing out pages from the computer that he then had to walk down the hall to retrieve from the printer room. Every time he walked down the hall, he was accompanied by a hallucination of a little girl.
Also, people racing in the Iditarod dog sled race often report having similar hallucinations due to severe sleep deprivation and stress.
Did you wake up with bruises on your neck from the fingers "digging in"?
quote:
No, although I have heard that such things do happen with demon spirits sometimes.
So, in this case, even though you felt the fingers "digging in", you had no marks.
Doesn't this seem odd, if you were really being strangled as hard as you said you were?
quote:
I've had that "nameless dread" feeling and the paralysis of the hypnagogic state too but NONE of these experiences had that quality to them.
Well, then I would say that you have a propensity to have these hallucinations in many different flavors.
quote:
Well I never did until I got involved in the occult. Kind of hard to avoid that connection. I was INTENSELY into oracles and psychic phenomena and the like.
Well, there you go right there. Do you not see the connection? You were "intensely into" these ideas. You believed them and probably wanted to have such experiences. Your brain, your subconscious, obliged, especially in the fantasyland of dreams.
I forget, how old did you say you were when you got into the occult and also when you began having these bedtime experiences?
quote:
I can't show you something that is by its nature invisible, I can't make the invisible visible, therefore we must conclude that there are no invisible beings, right?
I never said they didn't exist.
I only said that there was no need to invoke them to explain many hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations.
You wouldn't have to show me the "invisible beings", but you would have to show me evidence of their effect on the natural world if you want me to take you seriously.
We have evidence for a mundane, organic source for this phenomena, and no evidence at all of a spirit world.
I'm going to stick with the evidence, thanks.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-18-2005 08:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 5:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 10:19 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 303 (200060)
04-18-2005 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Trump won
04-17-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
Don't down someones openness to experience because you deny the experience.
Do you think that people who regularly see things that other people can't see and hear voices that other people can't hear are generally 100% sane?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Trump won, posted 04-17-2005 5:39 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 04-18-2005 9:07 AM nator has replied
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