Existence of Demons (and Angels)

Certainly they might be. The hard part is to convince the deaf that there really is sound.It is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are some who possess either senses we do not possess or have senses that are able to reacyt over a broader range than most of us.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Certainly they might be. The hard part is to convince the deaf that there really is sound.

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It is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are some who possess either senses we do not possess or have senses that are able to reacyt over a broader range than most of us.

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So, you think there are people who have "demon sense", or something?

Or something.I think that almost all of the apparitions are entirely imagined with no basis in reality. But I wonder about other things such as the voice of prayer. Is it simply internal, a figment of imagination, or is it actually an extended sense or new sense?If you've followed many of my postings here, one question I've returned to fairly regularly is whether or not we'd be able to recognize a new feature, an evolved man? If it were some gross change such as a third arm that is designed to scratch that spot between your shoulders, it would be obvious. But suppose it were something more subtle, a different way of thinking or a different sense? Could we recognize, in fact would the individual even recognize, that there was a difference?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It isn't just *my* "mythology." The "gods and goddesses" list I posted above (#113?) is a pretty long one. The demonology lists aren't short, and their source isn't Christian.* * * Yes, I do think some mental illnesses in some cases *may* have demonic involvement, especially the kind where the person hears voices.* * * Nonphysical things can't be shown/proved. You either find people's reports credible or you don't. You don't so that's that. * * * The idea of scientific testability began with physical observations. The same kind of verifiability does not go for psychology. But that's OK. You know everything. I know nothing. Have a good day.

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It isn't just *my* "mythology." The "gods and goddesses" list I posted above (#113?) is a pretty long one. The demonology lists aren't short, and their source isn't Christian.* * *

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OK, the mythology you share with others.The issue is the same.

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Yes, I do think some mental illnesses in some cases *may* have demonic involvement, especially the kind where the person hears voices.* * *

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Back before psychoactive drugs were developed and it was not fully understood that the brain was the source of behavior, the sanitoriums were filled with "possessed" people and the exorcisms didn't work.People with epilepsy sometimes hear voices. Are they possessed, too, or do they have a condition where their brain produces unsychronized waves of synaptic activity?So, if we give the person who hears voices some psychoactive medication, and they stop hearing the voices, did the medication scare the demons away, or did the medication correct something chemical in the brain?

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Nonphysical things can't be shown/proved.

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And I am telling you that much of what you say is "nonphysical" actually is quite physical.

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You either find people's reports credible or you don't.

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Or we give them psychoactive drugs and/or look for possible physical causes.You don't want there to be a physical cause, even though we have a good deal of evidence that points to a physical cause.

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You don't so that's that. * * * The idea of scientific testability began with physical observations. The same kind of verifiability does not go for psychology.

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Look, I am married to a research psychologist who deals with physical observations every day. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about, Faith. You are just spewing nonsense.

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But that's OK. You know everything. I know nothing. Have a good day.

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I obviously don't know everything.Why would I be asking so many questions if I thought I knew everything?Why won't you address my examples of lucid hallucinations brought on by sleep deprivation?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-18-2005 09:50 AM

I would really like some kind of comment on these issues, Faith, from my previous message.

The idea that the number of people who believe a thing is a factor in determining it's truth is called argumentum ad numerum and it is a common fallacy.That's why all these eyewitness accounts or "witness evidence" are not evidence. Humans are lousy witnesses. That's one of the reasons why we had to invent science.Also, the santa/demon analogy is hardly silly. Both refer to the belief in an entity for which there is no evidence. The fact that you mistakenly believe in on eof them doesn't make it silly.

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Yes, I do think some mental illnesses in some cases *may* have demonic involvement, especially the kind where the person hears voices.* * *

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Back before psychoactive drugs were developed and it was not fully understood that the brain was the source of behavior, the sanitoriums were filled with "possessed" people and the exorcisms didn't work.

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I wouldn't expect exorcisms to work in most cases. Why should a demon leave when he's happy there? Nothing you've said proves there isn't demon involvement, but even in the cases that are purely psychological I don't see great strides in helping them -- SOME help, yes. But what do they do with such people now? Mostly drug them to calm them down, right? The effectiveness of drugs does not prove anything about the source of the problem. Or let them live on the streets crazy as ever. Great "progress" there. Some of them may be helped by various techniques including great improvements in empathic counseling, but we haven't solved the problems of mental illness.

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People with epilepsy sometimes hear voices. Are they possessed, too, or do they have a condition where their brain produces unsychronized waves of synapses?

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Demon voices do not necessarily mean a person is "possessed" -- merely open to the voices. Whether what epileptics hear is demonic or mental I couldn't judge without knowing more. When I said you couldn't induce what I experienced it's about whether or not clear enough distinctions are being made for judgment to be made. I gave examples where I would expect some perceptual experiences to be mentally produced and said I don't think they are the same as demon produced ones. In the case of an epileptic I'd need to know quite a bit about the quality of the voices involved to make a guess.

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So, if we give the person who hears voices some psychoactive medication, and they stop hearing the voices, did the medication scare the demons away, or did the medication correct something chemical in the brain?

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It MAY have stopped what really was a mentally-produced phenomenon. I've said many times that I do not deny purely psychological versions of these things but you have ignored that so far. Or it may have lessened the person's susceptibility to demonic communication. Or even possibily, the demons may consider it to be in their best interest to back off and let the drugs appear to be effective, who knows?

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Nonphysical things can't be shown/proved.

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And I am telling you that much of what you say is "nonphysical" actually is quite physical.

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You haven't proved it. You haven't answered the distinctions I've raised. You are merely asserting that it's so.

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You either find people's reports credible or you don't.

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Or we give them psychoactive drugs and/or look for possible phisical causes.

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You don't want there to be a physical cause, even though we have a good deal of evidence that points to a physical cause.

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It is true that even before I was a Christian I hated physical explanations for psychological events. We are not automatons. We are not just a bundle of neurons. Our minds are not our brains. We are not Pavlov's dogs.

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You don't so that's that. * * * The idea of scientific testability began with physical observations. The same kind of verifiability does not go for psychology.
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Look, I am married to a research psychologist who deals with physical observations every day. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about, Faith. You are just spewing nonsense.

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I have had experience in the field of psychology myself. >>>I know that drugs make a big difference for many people and I don't know any other solutions to those problems <<< but at the same time I object to the *philosophy* that goes with treating people with drugs or with behavioral techniques either. It's ultimately dehumanizing. Not that anybody working in the field has such attitudes but the underlying philosophy has that tendency.

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Why won't you address my examples of lucid hallucinations brought on by sleep deprivation?

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Maybe I missed them. I will go back and check.

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The idea that the number of people who believe a thing is a factor in determining it's truth is called argumentum ad numerum and it is a common fallacy.

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But neither is dismissing such information valid. You don't KNOW whether it's true or not and simply dismissing the fact that so many -- good grief, the entirety of the human race at one time -- testify to such experiences is hardly scientific. The modern attitude that such things are not real has NO scientific foundation. It's just that it was a popular idea a couple hundred years ago and it's still popular. The scientific level of this debunkery is nothing more than personal incredulity.

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That's why all these eyewitness accounts or "witness evidence" are not evidence. Humans are lousy witnesses. That's one of the reasons why we had to invent science.

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Some things have nothing but witness evidence. That's a fact of life. The highhanded dismissal of people's testimony to their own experience is one of the most inhumane and in fact just plain stupid and destructive things that has happened to this world.

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Also, the santa/demon analogy is hardly silly. Both refer to the belief in an entity for which there is no evidence. The fact that you mistakenly believe in on eof them doesn't make it silly.

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The problem is a cognitive error on your part. Most people can distinguish between purely imaginative ideas and actual experiences. Apparently you cannot and crashfrog can't but that's your problem. Even children can -- they only believe in Santa because trusted adults tell them he's real. The comparison between that and personal experience is ludicrous in the extreme.

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I would really like some kind of comment on these issues, Faith, from my previous message.
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Yes, and I took acid a couple times and the walls melted and the lights exploded into crystalline patterns and I knew it was a hallucination. HOWEVER, SOME people took acid and believed that they had found "God" and a "higher consciousness." And that is a real possibility it seems to me, that drugs can connect a person to a spiritual reality that is ordinarily not experienced.
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Or a spiritual unreality, just like the unreality of the walls melting.

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Depends. It would take very careful investigation to begin to know. You have a habit of dismissing all these things out of hand. You lump things together without any real basis. You ignore the distinctions I myself have made, between psychological and spirital phenomena.

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Don't you see the incredible bias you have, Faith?

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The bias is clearly yours. You don't bother with the obvious distinctions or have any interest in considering them. You have made the most ridiculous statements even after I've been quite clear about the kinds of symptoms I would expect with demon involvement. You'll give a silly scenario about your own supposed demon possession. You obviously couldn't care less about the actual facts of any situation.

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When the walls are melting during an acid trip, you dismiss it as a chemically-induced hallucination, but when someone "finds God" during an acid trip, you automatically consider it to be "real".

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Not at all. I simply consider it to be a possibility, since those who have such experiences don't describe them in the same terms I experienced my own acid trips, and unlike some here I am disposed to be respectful toward people's statements of their own experiences until I have more knowledge. There are whole cultures where the ingesting of drugs for the purpose of spiritual experiences is practiced. I don't know that that's not real. I simply haven't experienced it myself and I have no interest in doing so either as it fits with what I have learned about the reality of demons.

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Why can't ALL of it be a chemically-induced hallucination, INCLUDING the spiritual feelings?

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Some of it may be but your lack of interest in making acute distinctions doesn't convince me you'd be the one to make the determination.

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Well the second idea is silly as NOBODY claims any of it is going on in the real physical world. But if someone described seeing an angel or demon under LSD I personally would consider the possibility of its being a real angel or demon, depending on the description given.

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LOL! You have an incredible double standard. Any "evidence" which supports your belief, you accept, anything that doesn't, you discard.

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You missed the point. Melting walls are first of all walls that actually exist. Seeing something that is not actually physically present would raise many questions that melting walls and other distortions of actual physical reality don't.

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I really do NOT believe, however, that one can hallucinate voices with such clarity or see apparitions with such clarity and they not be real.
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Why not?

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It is very well documented that people can have very real-seeming hallucinations, and in a much more awake state than you were.

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I'd have to read and compare the descriptions myself. I certainly can't trust you to make the necessary observations and distinctions.

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Schizophrenics have hallucinations that are extremely real, with very clear voices telling them things, and they can also have very vivid visual hallucinations.

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But this is just an assertion. I've made distinctions between different kinds of phenomena but you just lump it all together. Just HOW "real" is "real?" You aren't interested in finding out. How carefully are these voices and hallucinations described so that one can judge what exactly is involved?

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Similarly, I had a friend who was working for several days around the clock to finish a project. He had been awake almost constantly for several days. He was in the lab late at night, printing out pages from the computer that he then had to walk down the hall to retrieve from the printer room. Every time he walked down the hall, he was accompanied by a hallucination of a little girl.

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Sleep deprivation may make a person open to extranormal phenomena. How would you distinguish between that and a mental production?

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Also, people racing in the Iditarod dog sled race often report having similar hallucinations due to severe sleep deprivation and stress.

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Same point as above.

Exactly 50% of the Earth's population is of below-average intelligence. If that doesn't fill you with distrust of the ability of most people to accurately assess their own experiences - and I certainly place myself in that category - then it is your position which is stupid and destructive.When we took everybody's word for everything, that time was called the Dark Ages. Now that we're a little less credulous, people are living longer, easier lives. Destructive? Apparently its been the saving of the human race.

Time will tell.

I'm not talking about "taking everybody's word for everything." Good grief.

Absolutely incorrect. You are adding a fundamental misconception about science to your formidable array of errors, Faith. There is clear scientific reason to ignore such folderol as demons and angels. Science is gathering evidence and formulating the best explanation you can based on the facts; it's making predictions based on your explanation and then testing them. Since that first key factor, evidence, is missing, you are stopped before you get out of the gate. I absolutely accept that you believe what you believe. I would never debate that. You are the only source of information on the state of you mind. But does the content of your mind reflect reality? When that becomes the question, then evidence becomes the coin of the realm and frankly, on this you're broke.That's the simple point you are missing... just because you think it doesn't mean anything. To think that it should is what is stupid and high-handed. If everyone had always been content with their own subjective perceptions and culturally biased knee jerk reactions, we would still be praying over the sick and living in huts in a purely agricultural society. It is only by learning to look beyond those ingrained beliefs and learning to look for facts that we have advanced our knowledge.You see, as soon as you invoke the supernatural, you're done. You have explained a thing without really knowing anything more about it. By saying, "That person is hearing voice. Demons are talking through or to him" you don't have to ask "Why is that person hearing voices, if he is?" and you end up never learning about schizophrenia and how to actually help those people.That kind of anti-intellectual supernaturalism (which is exactly what you are engaging in) is simply dangerous. Actually they can't. Only by applying the standards of science and rationality can that distinction be made. If it happened, it will leave traces in the physical world that can be detected. If it didn't, there is no reason to believe in it's reality. What gives you this rather high handed idea? Crash and I ask for evidence in physical reality and that means we can't distinguish actual events form imagination? You are an excellent example of the mental acrobatics needed to maintain supernatural beliefs in the face of rational enquiry.This message has been edited by mikehager, 04-18-2005 11:33 AM

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I wouldn't expect exorcisms to work in most cases. Why should a demon leave when he's happy there? Nothing you've said proves there isn't demon involvement,

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Nothing I've said proves that there isn't pixie involvement, or invisible pink unicorn involevement, or Isis involvement, or little green men involvement.The evidence for all of these things, plus demon involvement, is the same.

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but even in the cases that are purely psychological I don't see great strides in helping them -- SOME help, yes. But what do they do with such people now? Mostly drug them to calm them down, right?

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No, not right.They don't just give them sedatives, Faith. They give them medications that can help to correct the chemical imbalances in their brains that are causing the hallucinations.We can see on brain cans that schizophrenic's brain activity is very different from non-schizoid people. When we give them the correct drugs, their brain activity resembles non-schizophenic brain activity.For epileptics, it is possible to identify and then remove the part of the brain from which the seizures and hallucinations originate, which leads to a cure.Are you saying that the epileptics' demons lived in that part of their brains and were removed during surgery?

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The effectiveness of drugs does not prove anything about the source of the problem.

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It does show that the behavior is likely to have a physical basis, does it not?Remember, we aren't just dsedating people; we are treating their disorder directly, in the brain, with psychoactive drugs. what do you think "psychoactive" referrs to?

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It is true that even before I was a Christian I hated physical explanations for psychological events.

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And yet, when we tinker with the brain, we have an effect upon psychological events.There is no escaping this reality, you know.

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We are not automatons. We are not just a bundle of neurons. Our minds are not our brains.

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So, why then do our minds seem to be so affected by what happens to our brains?If someone has a stroke and is rendered unable to read, that means that they cannot read, no matter how much their "self", their "mind" wants to read.The mind is clearly produced by the brain.

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We are not Pavlov's dogs.

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Oh, yes, we pretty much are.Are you saying that you are immune to classical conditioning? That is clearly not true, we all are quite susceptible to it. In fact, we all benefit directly from it.Touch the fire, get burned.See fire, remember that it burns if you get too close.That's classical conditioning.

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I have had experience in the field of psychology myself.

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As a researcher?

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I know that drugs make a big difference for many people and I don't know any other solutions to those problems

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You know I was talking about research psycholcogy, right? Like, scientists trying to figure out how the brain works.

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but at the same time I object to the *philosophy* that goes with treating people with drugs or with behavioral techniques either.

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No, that's clinical psychology. Medicine.I'm talking about basic research.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-18-2005 11:43 AM