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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 136 of 303 (200114)
04-18-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
04-18-2005 12:28 PM


Time will tell? I would say that it already has, for the reasons Crash gave.
I'm not talking about "taking everybody's word for everything." Good grief.
It certainly sounded like you were. Not doing so was, I think you said, "stupid and inhumane".
Or perhaps you only take the word of people that agree with you. Would you believe that some animist somewhere who had expierences like you describe and explained it in a manner contrary to your christian mythology? No, you would say that person was decieved and that it was a demon, a servant of Lucifer, cast out of heaven for the sin of rebellion. At least from your writings I guess that would be your take on it.
So, assuming my assesment is accurate, why are you right and he wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 12:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:15 PM mikehager has replied

Specter
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 303 (200119)
04-18-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mikehager
04-17-2005 12:44 AM


Re: Demon stories
Someone once said to me:
Know that all things are possible by Faith.
Obviously you don't have much faith in God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mikehager, posted 04-17-2005 12:44 AM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:19 PM Specter has not replied
 Message 142 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:21 PM Specter has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 303 (200123)
04-18-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by nator
04-18-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Demon stories
You know I was talking about research psycholcogy, right? Like, scientists trying to figure out how the brain works.
Yes, of course, but there is a tendency in that frame of reference to equate the mind with the brain, and that is the physicalized *philosophy* I object to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by nator, posted 04-18-2005 12:39 PM nator has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 303 (200124)
04-18-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by mikehager
04-18-2005 12:41 PM


Always a strange experience to see how people misread things I say, but I guess there's nothing I can do about it, having tried pretty hard so far and found it futile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 12:41 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:19 PM Faith has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 140 of 303 (200126)
04-18-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:15 PM


In what way have I misread you? Would you not impose a christian world view on the situation I described?
Also, if people are often misunderstand you, consider looking at how you present your ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:15 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 303 (200127)
04-18-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Specter
04-18-2005 12:59 PM


Faith has to be faith in the right things
quote:
Someone once said to me: Know that all things are possible by Faith.
Faith in Jesus Christ, I hope you mean, not faith in anything else. Nobody can get to know God at all without faith in Him, starting with simple belief that His word is the truth. Those who find fault with it don't know what they are doing to themselves. They are making it impossible to know God even while thinking they are getting to know him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Specter, posted 04-18-2005 12:59 PM Specter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:22 PM Faith has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 142 of 303 (200129)
04-18-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Specter
04-18-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Demon stories
And someone once said to me, "You better be a good boy or Santa won't leave your presents." Do you believe everything people tell you?
Obviously you don't have much faith in God.
Of course I don't. Why should I? It's just another fairy tale, like all the others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Specter, posted 04-18-2005 12:59 PM Specter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:24 PM mikehager has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 143 of 303 (200130)
04-18-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:19 PM


Re: Faith has to be faith in the right things
...starting with simple belief that His word is the truth
Perhaps you can tell us why you would believe this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:32 PM mikehager has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 303 (200131)
04-18-2005 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by mikehager
04-18-2005 1:21 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
Of course I don't. Why should I? It's just another fairy tale, like all the others.
Ah the blind Dogma of the Unbeliever. Amazing how they project such thought patterns onto others and don't see them in themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:21 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:41 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 303 (200132)
04-18-2005 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by mikehager
04-18-2005 1:22 PM


Re: Faith has to be faith in the right things
quote:
...starting with simple belief that His word is the truth. Perhaps you can tell us why you would believe this?
Well, such a question can hardly get at it, I'm afraid. There are many reasons. It has the ring of truth. The authors are believable. The testimony of believers is convincing. The great writers/thinkers/doers of Christianity are convincing. My faith in it has only grown with time and experience of it. If you approach it with faith you discover a consistency in it that is apparently lost on those who pick it apart, and the more you learn the more astonishing is the consistency it exhibits. If you approach it with faith in the God who inspired it, it yields enormous riches that are indescribable.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 12:34 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 12:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:22 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:37 PM Faith has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 146 of 303 (200133)
04-18-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:32 PM


Re: Faith has to be faith in the right things
It has the ring of truth.
Not for the billons of people who have heard of it but not believed it. You are the one so hyped on taking subjective experience as evidence. Are you discounting all those people?
If you approach it with faith you discover a consistency in it that is apparently lost on those who pick it apart and the more you learn the more astonishing is the consistency it exhibits. If you approach it with faith in the God who inspired it, it yields enormous riches that are indescribable.
If one must already believe in it for the evidence to be compelling, the evidence must not be all that good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:47 PM mikehager has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 147 of 303 (200134)
04-18-2005 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:24 PM


Re: Demon stories
Ah the blind Dogma of the Unbeliever. Amazing how they project such thought patterns onto others and don't see them in themselves.
It is hardly dogmatic. It is the result of long research into mythology and acceptance of science. This is a common theistic claim, that non belief is as dogmatic as belief. This can be true, but often is not. The problem is that many theists are so accustomed to operating by dogma that they assume others must do so also and that simply isn't so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 2:14 PM mikehager has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 303 (200135)
04-18-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by mikehager
04-18-2005 1:37 PM


Re: Faith has to be faith in the right things
quote:
It has the ring of truth.
Not for the billons of people who have heard of it but not believed it. You are the one so hyped on taking subjective experience as evidence. Are you discounting all those people?
Yup.
I said nothing that suggests I believe everything people say. You've read that into my posts.
quote:
If one must already believe in it for the evidence to be compelling, the evidence must not be all that good.
I think it was Tertullian who said "I know because I believe." Or maybe Athanasius. That's the way it is with the Bible. It contradicts the wisdom of the world which among other things says one must have a certain kind of evidence to know anything. God's wisdom is "foolishness" to the natural man, as it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:37 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 2:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 154 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 2:24 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 149 of 303 (200138)
04-18-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:47 PM


That's the way it is with the Bible. It contradicts the wisdom of the world which among other things says one must have a certain kind of evidence to know anything. God's wisdom is "foolishness" to the natural man, as it says.
Which is exactly what you would say if you were trying to get adults to swallow fairy tales that wouldn't convince a child. "Oh, this doesn't make sense to you? Oh, that's because you don't believe in it yet."
Personally I've never been too impressed by a system of belief that only holds up so long as you never actually put it to the test.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 2:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 303 (200142)
04-18-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by mikehager
04-18-2005 1:41 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
It is hardly dogmatic. It is the result of long research into mythology and acceptance of science. This is a common theistic claim, that non belief is as dogmatic as belief. This can be true, but often is not. The problem is that many theists are so accustomed to operating by dogma that they assume others must do so also and that simply isn't so.
Not so. It's a straight assessment of how you guys talk, in flat dogmatic pronouncements. And that "long research" has done nothing but confirm what you started out believing, begging the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 1:41 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 2:22 PM Faith has replied

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