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Author Topic:   Existence of Demons (and Angels)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 151 of 303 (200143)
04-18-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by crashfrog
04-18-2005 2:04 PM


quote:
Personally I've never been too impressed by a system of belief that only holds up so long as you never actually put it to the test.
It's been put to the test over and over. Just not the kind of silly test you would dream up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 2:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 2:22 PM Faith has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 152 of 303 (200145)
04-18-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
04-18-2005 2:14 PM


Re: Demon stories
...that "long research" has done nothing but confirm what you started out believing, begging the question.
That is not the case. I started out christian and it was the interest in mythology, the "long research" that showed me the error in my thinking.
The pronouncements may sound dogmatic to someone who operates on that basis continually, but that is not the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 2:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:04 PM mikehager has replied
 Message 176 by Specter, posted 04-19-2005 9:45 AM mikehager has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 153 of 303 (200146)
04-18-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
04-18-2005 2:17 PM


Just not the kind of silly test you would dream up.
That is, one that could accurately distinguish between outcomes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 2:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:05 PM crashfrog has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 154 of 303 (200147)
04-18-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
04-18-2005 1:47 PM


Re: Faith has to be faith in the right things
Then we are left with the fact that you believe only those that agree with you, regardless of the fact that they have arrived at their ideas in exactly the same way you arrived at yours. How reasonable is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 1:47 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 155 of 303 (200150)
04-18-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by mikehager
04-18-2005 2:22 PM


Re: Demon stories
quote:
That is not the case. I started out christian and it was the interest in mythology, the "long research" that showed me the error in my thinking.
Hm, another victim of the secularist educational nightmare. Well, what can I say. You want to start a thread to discuss the supposed truths you learned in your study of mythology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 2:22 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 3:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 171 by nator, posted 04-18-2005 5:40 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 156 of 303 (200151)
04-18-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by crashfrog
04-18-2005 2:22 PM


quote:
Just not the kind of silly test you would dream up.
That is, one that could accurately distinguish between outcomes.
That would be nice, but so far I haven't seen you show much grasp of what kind of test that would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 2:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:09 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 157 of 303 (200152)
04-18-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:05 PM


That would be nice, but so far I haven't seen you show much grasp of what kind of test that would be.
No, you have. But like pretty much every discussion with you, we've hit the point where you're convinced that any test in which there's even a possibility that your religious dogma wouldn't pass is hopelessly biased against Christianity.
Well, great. I mean, that's exactly how someone who would want you to believe a foolish fairy tale would want you to think. What you have is a position called "unassailiable ignorance." You've successfully closed your mind, via circular reasoning (and here's a hint, any time you're saying that "it won't make sense to you until you believe in it", you're reasoning circularly), to any possibility that you might be wrong.
Congratulations. There's absolutely no reasoning with you because you've set your position absolutely beyond reason.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-18-2005 02:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 303 (200159)
04-18-2005 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by crashfrog
04-18-2005 3:09 PM


Nonsense. Your post applies to yourself and others here though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:24 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 159 of 303 (200161)
04-18-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:14 PM


I am rubber and you are glue
Nonsense.
Oh? Well, then you should have no trouble answering this question: What evidence would convince you that your faith was misplaced, and that what you believed is wrong?
You ask me that about evolution, or even atheism, and I'll give you an answer. Because I hold those positions rationally, I hold them tentatively, and therefore I have falsifiability conditions.
Do you? If there's no evidence I could show you that would convince you your faith was misplaced, then the answer is "no", and your position is not rational. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at reasonably.
Your post applies to yourself and others here though.
"I know you are but what am I" may have cut it in the 3rd grade, Faith, but it doesn't constitute much of an argument around here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 303 (200164)
04-18-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by crashfrog
04-18-2005 3:24 PM


Re: I am rubber and you are glue
quote:
Oh? Well, then you should have no trouble answering this question: What evidence would convince you that your faith was misplaced, and that what you believed is wrong?
Well, be precise here. There may be many ASPECTS of my faith that I could find to be wrong as I don't claim to be omniscient, but there is no evidence that could disprove my basic belief in the God of the Bible, just as there is no evidence that could disprove to you the reality of your own body and mind and personality and the reality of other human beings and your interactions with them. Are you prepared to disbelieve the whole web of memories you have of communications with people over your life, family, friends? Certainly some particular memories may be wrong, that happens all the time, but I'm trying to get hold of the whole picture here. It's not like that really but I can't think of anything analogous, just looking for things you know are real but can't prove, and if you could disprove them it would destroy your ability to function. If you could talk yourself out of believing all those things, even what you had for lunch -- also something very difficult to prove once the lunch is gone -- you would induce in yourself something akin to a lobotomy. It's like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 3:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:58 PM Faith has replied
 Message 203 by 1.61803, posted 04-21-2005 4:49 PM Faith has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 161 of 303 (200169)
04-18-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:04 PM


Re: Demon stories
There's no reason, really. Another "Faith denies reason" thread is redundant.
I would likely reply if you started one, but I see little future in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:04 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Specter, posted 04-19-2005 9:40 AM mikehager has not replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 162 of 303 (200170)
04-18-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:39 PM


Re: I am rubber and you are glue
... there is no evidence that could disprove my basic belief in the God of the Bible
So you admit that your beliefs are entirely dogmatic and unreasonable? You likely won't admit it, but you have clearly shown that the are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 4:04 PM mikehager has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 163 of 303 (200173)
04-18-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:39 PM


Re: I am rubber and you are glue
just as there is no evidence that could disprove to you the reality of your own body and mind and personality and the reality of other human beings and your interactions with them.
The problem is that there's no evidence that proves those things, either. I hold those positions, but I do so tentatively.
Are you prepared to disbelieve the whole web of memories you have of communications with people over your life, family, friends?
Yes. Does that shock you?
If you could talk yourself out of believing all those things, even what you had for lunch -- also something very difficult to prove once the lunch is gone -- you would induce in yourself something akin to a lobotomy.
What you would induce would be a committment to holding positions only tentatively and not dogmatically.
Not everybody's like you, Faith. Not all of us are so paralyzed by the idea of a little uncertainty about even the things we think we're sure about that we have to cling to dogma and turn our brains off. Your universe isn't going to disappear if you look at it askance. I'm prepared to deal with a little doubt about everything. But the mere suggestion of doubt sends you running for your Biblical comfort blanket. Where do people get this pathological fear of uncertainty?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 4:05 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 4:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 164 of 303 (200177)
04-18-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by mikehager
04-18-2005 3:54 PM


Re: I am rubber and you are glue
So you admit that your beliefs are entirely dogmatic and unreasonable? You likely won't admit it, but you have clearly shown that the are.
======
In exactly the same sense your belief in your closest relationships is dogmatic and unreasonable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 3:54 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by mikehager, posted 04-18-2005 6:12 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 303 (200178)
04-18-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by crashfrog
04-18-2005 3:58 PM


Re: I am rubber and you are glue
Not everybody's like you, Faith. Not all of us are so paralyzed by the idea of a little uncertainty about even the things we think we're sure about that we have to cling to dogma and turn our brains off.
You don't get it. I don't HAVE any uncertainty. There is NOTHING that could bring it about. Same as you don't have any about the things in your own life that are closest to you that you can't prove. It would take the destruction of your mind to "disprove" them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 3:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 4:08 PM Faith has not replied

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