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Author Topic:   Why would the apostiles have lied?
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 122 of 177 (19705)
10-12-2002 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by compmage
10-11-2002 8:56 PM


Hanno,
Provide non-religious, non biblical evidence that the apostles exist.
If you can't, then ALL you have is a self proclaiming religious text, & I'm just as likely to accept anything in any other religious text. Make sense? Sound reasonable?
How can I answer your questions on whether the apostles lied when you can't even establish their existence? I'm sure someone DID convert early christians, the burden of proof is on YOU to show that it was the 12 biblical apostles.
Jesus has this evidence, & is good enough for me to tentatively accept he existed, if not the son of God. If you can provode the same, then I'll accept the same for the apostles.
LACK OF DOCUMENTATION IS NOT EVIDENCE FOR CHRISSAKES!!!!!
How can you possibly triple back flip & think it is?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 8:56 PM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Percy, posted 10-12-2002 6:24 AM mark24 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 123 of 177 (19706)
10-12-2002 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by mark24
10-12-2002 5:37 AM


Hi Mark!

Jesus has this evidence...
Do you believe this because of the Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Thallus evidence? These accounts were all written long after Jesus's death and at best merely represent descriptions of what was then known about Christians. And the primary Joshephus reference is widely believed to be a later Christian insertion.
I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, just that I don't believe the evidence for Jesus is any better than for the apostles.
My personal speculation is that Jesus *did* actually exist, that he led just one, and a minor one at that, of the many sects comprising the cauldron of early Jewish religious beliefs from which eventually developed modern rabbinical Judaism. Jesus was too minor a figure to come to the attention of any contemporary commentators, but he did come to the attention of Paul, a devout and traditional Jew who played some role in religious enforcement. I believe Paul did persecute Jesus.
At some point Jesus somehow came to the attention of the Roman authorities and was crucified, though why isn't clear. Shortly thereafter Paul experienced a religious conversion, possibly on the road to Damascus. He began an evangelical movement to convert gentiles throughout Asia Minor and Greece, and gradually built up a community of churches in the region. He found it convenient to maintain a facade of agreement with the Jerusalem church, even though he differed with them on many points, because he found the connection with Jerusalem helpful in drawing converts. I believe the apostles existed because Paul mentions them in his letters, but beyond Peter and a couple others we know little of who they were or what they did or said.
The gospels themselves are fictions based on speculations on Paul's sparse accounts of Jesus's ministry. They were composed not only long after Jesus's death, but even long after Paul's death.
I believe it is possible that Paul spun Jesus from whole cloth, but this isn't the view I currently adhere to.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by mark24, posted 10-12-2002 5:37 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by mark24, posted 10-12-2002 11:57 AM Percy has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 124 of 177 (19726)
10-12-2002 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Percy
10-12-2002 6:24 AM


Hi Percy,
I dimly remember, & I stand to be corrected, that there were written Roman & Jewish records of Jesus' "troublemaking", & eventual crucifixion (sp?).
It has never really bothered me whether he did or didn't exist, I am more interested in the evidence that shows who he says he is, of which there is none. I really conceded the point to force Hanno to provide positive corobborative evidence of the apostles existence. My argument isn't that the apostles existed, or not, but what evidence Hanno thinks is acceptable in support of their existence.
A self evident bible is just as "true" as a self evident Koran.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Percy, posted 10-12-2002 6:24 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by John, posted 10-12-2002 12:18 PM mark24 has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 177 (19729)
10-12-2002 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by mark24
10-12-2002 11:57 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
I dimly remember, & I stand to be corrected, that there were written Roman & Jewish records of Jesus' "troublemaking", & eventual crucifixion (sp?).
Not really. The references to Jesus cited by Percy are about it and they aren't very convincing.
This has been posted before but:
Scott Oser Hojfaq » Internet Infidels
As for Jewish references, those are even worse:
Jesus In The Talmud
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by mark24, posted 10-12-2002 11:57 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by mark24, posted 10-12-2002 1:44 PM John has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 177 (19731)
10-12-2002 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by compmage
10-11-2002 5:01 PM


quote:
Had Muhammed died a marter because of what he was teaching, I might have been more compeled to believe he did actually speak to Gabriel. It would've showed beyond reasonable doubt that he believed in what he was teaching, and since he was the one that claimed to have witnessed Gabriel, this revelation would have been proved beyond reasonable doubt. (No offence intended to Muslims. I'm simply sharing my religious views, and as you know, in the Bible it says that Jesus is the only path to salvasion. And since Muhammeds teachings contradict this, I cannot believe him.)
Just for info, in Islamic history, it was stated that Prophet Muhammad was already known as al-Amin ('The Honest One') even before his appointment as Prophet (Gabriel's visitation) among the idol-worshippers of Mecca. His integrity, which brought him that title, convinced some of his closest associates that the visitation was real and truthful. However, you might not find this argument useful here.
Anyway, Muslims acknowledge that Jesus and his 12 disciples do exist. The disciples were known in the Qur'an as the 'Hawariyyun'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 5:01 PM compmage has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 127 of 177 (19743)
10-12-2002 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by John
10-12-2002 12:18 PM


John, Percy,
Thanks for the info, I have revided [*edit* that would be "reviewed"] my view accordingly,
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 10-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by John, posted 10-12-2002 12:18 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by compmage, posted 10-15-2002 1:00 PM mark24 has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 128 of 177 (19930)
10-15-2002 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by mark24
10-12-2002 1:44 PM


I would like to thank everyone that participated in this debate. It has been an interesting experience. I haven't read any more replies since late last Saterday. The replies have been coming in faster than I could reply, and I'm too busy lately to reply.
I want to attempt to close my participation of this debate....again. The reason is not because I felt I won or lost. I didn't convince anyone of you, so I can't say I won, (As Paul said to the Corinthians. I can only tell people the Gosple. It is the Holy Spirit that does the converting of people.) I haven't lost either, because I wasn't convinced by your arguements. I'm not going to explain in detail why I'm not convinced, because it is repeated over and over in my previous posts.
The reason why I'm ending this debate is simply because you have said all you can say on this matter, and I have also said all I can say on this matter. It is clear that no convincing is possible in this arguement. I'm pretty tired of repeating my arguments, and I think you are probably too. To me, the historical evidence we have, the religions texts we have, the short amount of time before they appeared and the persecution that went along with it, is enough to put the pieces together. However, you seem to be looking for another piece, and I could not comprient what piece you are looking for. Therefore, I can not provide it to you. I can only hope that maybe, one day, you may know the blessing of knowing the true God, the One that loved us so much, that He paid for our wrong doings in our place, so we may be saved. Please don't go around saying that I said that I'm good enough in Gods eyes, and you are all sinners.(like you did last time.) We are all sinners, and I'm no less worthy of damnation than you are. My salvation is a gift from God, I am not deserving of it.
PS. On a more purely religious note. I was at a seminar of a former New Ager, where I leard of the bazzare concept of an interfaith-religion (sponcered by the United Nations to bring world piece. This idea is idiotic.) Because this exists, I need to make something very clear. When I said "I respect people's religion", I did not mean it in the multi-faith sence of the word: that all religions are paths to God. This is a false teaching, as Jesus had clearly said "I am the way. No one comes to Me, except trough the Father, and no one comes to the Father, except through me." We cannot worship God in the way we see fit, we have to do it as He prescribes. When I say I respect peoples religion, I mean I respect their right to believe it without being ridiculed about it. However, their religion will not bring salvation, because they teach that we can make ourselves acceptable before God. No one is good, and all is worthy of damnation. Not even one man is good in the eyes of God. To get salvation, you must believe that it is God that brought salvation to us. It is like we're all Africa's, and none of us are able to pay our dept to the West, and then the West write that dept off, without us deserving it. Similary, God wrote our dept off. All we need to do to recieve this blessing, is to believe in Him that paid the price.)
[This message has been edited by Hanno, 10-15-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by mark24, posted 10-12-2002 1:44 PM mark24 has not replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 177 (19943)
10-15-2002 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by compmage
10-11-2002 7:33 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:
I'm sorry, Mark but I just can't do that. Yes, to some extend you are right: I will never be able to betray my believes. This "believe, despite anything" is a build in capability of the human being, and mine is well developed. There is nothing that can convince me that the Bible is not the Word of God. I just can't imagine live without christianity. It is a big part of what I am, and live without it seems bleek and pointless. If this is what you wanted to hear from me, than there, I said it.
Just out of curiosity.. What if God presented himself to you and flat out told you that the bible, while a great read was in fact NOT his word? That some fruitcakes took it upon themselves to convert everyone, and while he appreciates the effort there is no real reason to since being God and all he really could care less who believes or not.
What would that do to your faith?
Red

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by compmage, posted 10-11-2002 7:33 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by nos482, posted 10-15-2002 4:10 PM RedVento has not replied
 Message 131 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:09 AM RedVento has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 177 (19945)
10-15-2002 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by RedVento
10-15-2002 3:03 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:
I'm sorry, Mark but I just can't do that. Yes, to some extend you are right: I will never be able to betray my believes. This "believe, despite anything" is a build in capability of the human being, and mine is well developed. There is nothing that can convince me that the Bible is not the Word of God. I just can't imagine live without christianity. It is a big part of what I am, and live without it seems bleek and pointless. If this is what you wanted to hear from me, than there, I said it.
Just out of curiosity.. What if God presented himself to you and flat out told you that the bible, while a great read was in fact NOT his word? That some fruitcakes took it upon themselves to convert everyone, and while he appreciates the effort there is no real reason to since being God and all he really could care less who believes or not.
What would that do to your faith?
Red

I know what any TRUE believer would say; "Get behind me, Satan!!!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by RedVento, posted 10-15-2002 3:03 PM RedVento has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 131 of 177 (19996)
10-16-2002 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by RedVento
10-15-2002 3:03 PM


I would ask Him why did He wait so long to reveal His true caracter to us then, and how can I be sure of his identity. (An Almighty God will find some way to convince me, I'm sure.) Oh, by the way, why would God go to all the effort to create this universe, which, after 500 years of scientific research you could still not have discovered everything, and not care about it? There are people that see no problem with this view. I'm not one of them.
[This message has been edited by Hanno, 10-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by RedVento, posted 10-15-2002 3:03 PM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:34 AM compmage has not replied
 Message 133 by nos482, posted 10-16-2002 8:24 AM compmage has not replied
 Message 136 by RedVento, posted 10-16-2002 9:52 AM compmage has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 132 of 177 (19998)
10-16-2002 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by compmage
10-16-2002 3:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:
Oh, by the way, why would God go to all the effort to create this universe, which, after 500 years of scientific research you could still not have discovered everything, and not care about it? There are people that see no problem with this view. I'm not one of them.

I can think of several options:
1) This is an experiment and he/she/it wants to see how we get along without meddling.
2) This universe is the by-product of something larger and he/she/it is to busy with that larger something to worry about us.
3) This universe came about accidentally and he/she/it hasn't become aware of us yet.
4) This universe is so insignificant that he/she/it doesn't bother with us.
5) God was lonely but had to die or become impotent in order to create this universe, as a result, once the universe came into existance he/she/it lost to ability to affect it in anyway.
I'm sure I can think of many more if you want. I don't belief any of these, but I think them more likely than the christian God. At least with these you don't have to make up reasons why a perfectly loving God isn't doing anything about all the suffering in the world.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:09 AM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by nos482, posted 10-16-2002 8:25 AM compmage has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 177 (20011)
10-16-2002 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by compmage
10-16-2002 3:09 AM


Originally posted by Hanno:
I would ask Him why did He wait so long to reveal His true caracter to us then, and how can I be sure of his identity. (An Almighty God will find some way to convince me, I'm sure.)
How would you be sure that it wasn't Satan instead?
Oh, by the way, why would God go to all the effort to create this universe,
For a laught?
which, after 500 years of scientific research you could still not have discovered everything, and not care about it?
Scientists have discovered much about the universe which we didn't know before and are continuing to learn more and more everyday. Whereas the theists are stuck on "GODDIDIT!!".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:09 AM compmage has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 177 (20012)
10-16-2002 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by compmage
10-16-2002 3:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by compmage:
quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:
Oh, by the way, why would God go to all the effort to create this universe, which, after 500 years of scientific research you could still not have discovered everything, and not care about it? There are people that see no problem with this view. I'm not one of them.

I can think of several options:
1) This is an experiment and he/she/it wants to see how we get along without meddling.
2) This universe is the by-product of something larger and he/she/it is to busy with that larger something to worry about us.
3) This universe came about accidentally and he/she/it hasn't become aware of us yet.
4) This universe is so insignificant that he/she/it doesn't bother with us.
5) God was lonely but had to die or become impotent in order to create this universe, as a result, once the universe came into existance he/she/it lost to ability to affect it in anyway.
I'm sure I can think of many more if you want. I don't belief any of these, but I think them more likely than the christian God. At least with these you don't have to make up reasons why a perfectly loving God isn't doing anything about all the suffering in the world.

Are you are deist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:34 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 9:01 AM nos482 has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 135 of 177 (20017)
10-16-2002 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by nos482
10-16-2002 8:25 AM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:

Are you are deist?

No, an atheist. I was just pointing out that there are possible Gods that would not care about or meddle in the universe once it was created. These would also not fall prey to the PoE (Problem of Evil) as the Christian God does.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by nos482, posted 10-16-2002 8:25 AM nos482 has not replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 177 (20019)
10-16-2002 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by compmage
10-16-2002 3:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Hanno:
I would ask Him why did He wait so long to reveal His true caracter to us then, and how can I be sure of his identity. (An Almighty God will find some way to convince me, I'm sure.) Oh, by the way, why would God go to all the effort to create this universe, which, after 500 years of scientific research you could still not have discovered everything, and not care about it? There are people that see no problem with this view. I'm not one of them.
[This message has been edited by Hanno, 10-16-2002]

1st who says God went through ANY effort to create the universe.. That is VERY presumptious, and imposes SIGNIFICANT limits on God... The more I read from you the more I am convinced that it is not God you worship but the bible.. Good Job.
2nd, suppose he "proved" he was God. Would that suffice? Whould there be ANYTHING he could do to prove he was God and that the bible was not his word? Any answer other than yes proves you don't worship God, rather worship the bible. And if that is the case please stop pretending to be a good Christian.
3rd, whether the apostles and Jesus were real or not is really insignifacant. The real purpose of the Bible is to give you the guides to live by. Moral teachings and philosphies are the purpose of the bible. NEEDING it to be real only furthers my idea that worshiping God and Jesus is not really what you are doing. By worshiping the Bible itself you are creating false idols... Think about that for a while.
Red

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by compmage, posted 10-16-2002 3:09 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by compmage, posted 10-17-2002 8:29 AM RedVento has replied

  
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