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Author Topic:   About that Boat - Noah's Ark
Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 296 (187870)
02-23-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by allenroyboy
02-22-2005 9:18 AM


Re: Ark Design
An interesting site, but it is really written for people with little understanding about ocean going vessels.
The first thing I checked was the Roll stability calculator.
The Roll Stability Calculator can be used to study the stability of various hull cross-sections in static equilibrium. (Tilting slowly in flat water). This is one of the first things to be checked in a new design. Static roll stability can also be easily verified by building a scale model and tilting it over in the water.
Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that a big barge has static stability. The problem is its ultimate stability. And its resistance to broaching. And its ability to carry 30 million species and the food, water, etc. for a year's voyage.
Another problem people seem to avoid discussing is the survivability of the cargo and crew. I still remember the North Atlantic storm I rode out when aboard a 378' CG cutter. People were getting injured by the frantic motion of the ship and if we had lost power, well, let's just say I never wanted to be on a submarine. There were plenty of hand holds for us humans to grab to keep from being dashed to bits on the bulkheads, but any 4 legged crew would have had their heads bashed in! The Ark has to be approached as a whole. Vessel, cargo, weather, etc.
I gave a read of the Moonies' analysis of the ark and I was disturbed by there use of may have or might have been used. They seemed to avoid many of the hard questions and instead substituted a lot of math the try to show how scientific their study was. Unfortunately, I see nothing that would point to any high level of survivability of an unpowered barge, with no directional control, in an extreme environment.
I've said it before. If their calculations are so good, I'm sure they can get AiG to cough up the cash to build a replica, 8 people using hand tools, and set it afloat in the North Atlantic for a year. After all, replica ships are being built all the time all over the world.
I gave the rest of the site a look and I am not impressed. It is full of what I call Tech-mining, similar to quote-mining. Ya know, shoe-horning tech to fit.
As a sidebar, the date they gave for the Great Delude just don't fit. ~2300 BCE? Otzi died about 3200BCE, but there is no sign of flood deposits on his corpse. Malta has temples dated from 7000-5000 years ago, with no flood layers. Harappa has evidence of early civilizations from 3300-2800 BCE, with no flood layer. Let's not forget the Neolithic settlements in central Turkey, 7000 BCE.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Radiocarbon dating is unreliable. Silly me!

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by allenroyboy, posted 02-22-2005 9:18 AM allenroyboy has not replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 296 (187871)
02-23-2005 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by allenroyboy
02-22-2005 9:18 AM


Re: Ark Design
An interesting site, but it is really written for people with little understanding about ocean going vessels.
The first thing I checked was the Roll stability calculator.
The Roll Stability Calculator can be used to study the stability of various hull cross-sections in static equilibrium. (Tilting slowly in flat water). This is one of the first things to be checked in a new design. Static roll stability can also be easily verified by building a scale model and tilting it over in the water.
Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that a big barge has static stability. The problem is its ultimate stability. And its resistance to broaching. And its ability to carry 30 million species and the food, water, etc. for a year's voyage.
Another problem people seem to avoid discussing is the survivability of the cargo and crew. I still remember the North Atlantic storm I rode out when aboard a 378' CG cutter. People were getting injured by the frantic motion of the ship and if we had lost power, well, let's just say I never wanted to be on a submarine. There were plenty of hand holds for us humans to grab to keep from being dashed to bits on the bulkheads, but any 4 legged crew would have had their heads bashed in! The Ark has to be approached as a whole. Vessel, cargo, weather, etc.
I gave a read of the Moonies' analysis of the ark and I was disturbed by there use of may have or might have been used. They seemed to avoid many of the hard questions and instead substituted a lot of math the try to show how scientific their study was. Unfortunately, I see nothing that would point to any high level of survivability of an unpowered barge, with no directional control, in an extreme environment.
I've said it before. If their calculations are so good, I'm sure they can get AiG to cough up the cash to build a replica, 8 people using hand tools, and set it afloat in the North Atlantic for a year. After all, replica ships are being built all the time all over the world.
I gave the rest of the site a look and I am not impressed. It is full of what I call Tech-mining, similar to quote-mining. Ya know, shoe-horning tech to fit.
As a sidebar, the date they gave for the Great Delude just don't fit. ~2300 BCE? Otzi died about 3200BCE, but there is no sign of flood deposits on his corpse. Malta has temples dated from 7000-5000 years ago, with no flood layers. Harappa has evidence of early civilizations from 3300-2800 BCE, with no flood layer. Let's not forget the Neolithic settlements in central Turkey, 7000 BCE.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Radiocarbon dating is unreliable. Silly me!

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by allenroyboy, posted 02-22-2005 9:18 AM allenroyboy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 2:01 AM Bonobojones has replied

peaceharris
Member (Idle past 5597 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 03-28-2005


Message 258 of 296 (197567)
04-07-2005 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mespo
09-20-2002 2:08 PM


According to the Guinness book of records, the tallest trees are about 450 feet. Using your argument, the tallest trees should split under its own weight when it sways on a windy day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mespo, posted 09-20-2002 2:08 PM Mespo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 9:07 PM peaceharris has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 296 (197570)
04-07-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by peaceharris
04-07-2005 8:55 PM


The ark wasn't made of a single tree, but, presumably, much, much smaller planks fastened together somehow.
My understanding is that the main problem with a wooden ship that size is that the you cannot prevent the planks separating when the sea is anything by glass smooth, allowing a lot of water to be taken on board.
Again, I will repeat this: it would be very easy to demonstrate that a wooden ship of these dimensions is sea-worthy -- build one! I am sure the ICR and AiG bilk collect a lot of money from their followers. ICR fancies itself a research organization -- it would be interesting to see it do some actual research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by peaceharris, posted 04-07-2005 8:55 PM peaceharris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by peaceharris, posted 04-07-2005 9:28 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 264 by Bonobojones, posted 04-08-2005 6:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

peaceharris
Member (Idle past 5597 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 03-28-2005


Message 260 of 296 (197573)
04-07-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Chiroptera
04-07-2005 9:07 PM


We can rest assured that the worst flood recorded was anything but 'glass smooth'.
The Guinness book of records state that the tallest trees are Eucalyptus trees. These trees can bend a lot on windy days. See the photo here:
Morro Bay & Montana de Oro, 2/21-22/04
I'm sure any tree (other than eucalyptus) capable of growing very tall has the ability to bend a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 9:07 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 9:44 PM peaceharris has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 296 (197577)
04-07-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by peaceharris
04-07-2005 9:28 PM


Which isn't very relevant to a discussion of Noah's ark, unless someone is suggesting that it was a giant dugout canoe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by peaceharris, posted 04-07-2005 9:28 PM peaceharris has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by JonF, posted 04-08-2005 7:46 AM Chiroptera has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 262 of 296 (197633)
04-08-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Chiroptera
04-07-2005 9:44 PM


Which isn't very relevant to a discussion of Noah's ark, unless someone is suggesting that it was a giant dugout canoe.
Probably not even then; the bending characteristics of a U-shape (canoe) are very different from a cylinder (tree).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 9:44 PM Chiroptera has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 263 of 296 (197652)
04-08-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by John
09-20-2002 2:50 PM


removed.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 04-08-2005 09:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by John, posted 09-20-2002 2:50 PM John has not replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 296 (197733)
04-08-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Chiroptera
04-07-2005 9:07 PM


Your right about a hull working in a seaway. In the days of the "wooden walls", the pumps were manned almost constantly during weather, not because of water on the decks, but because the seams would open.
Keep in mind, also, that the Ark is more of a barge than an ocean going vessel. No rudder, no sails, nothing to keep her from broaching or being battered to pieces by a tempest that would make the "Perfect Storm" seem like a pleasant summer cruise.

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Chiroptera, posted 04-07-2005 9:07 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by RAZD, posted 04-18-2005 9:01 PM Bonobojones has replied

Raelian1
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 296 (198558)
04-12-2005 10:51 AM


Noah's flood really did happen, but the events were misinterpreted from the Bible. When the Elohim (aliens from the Bible) felt mankind was a threat, they dropped a nuclear bomb on the Earth. They spared a few people with Noah being the main person. It wasn't a boat he went on, it was a spaceship which flew above the firmament of the water. This explains why Pangaea was separated into 7 continents. Also, he didn't take two of every animal but a sample genetic code piece from each animal (If he did take two of every animal they would eat each other up). To read more, go to rael.org and check out the free e-books ("The message given by extraterrestrials" go into more detail about Noah's Flood).

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Wounded King, posted 04-12-2005 10:54 AM Raelian1 has not replied
 Message 267 by roxrkool, posted 04-12-2005 11:19 AM Raelian1 has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 266 of 296 (198559)
04-12-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Raelian1
04-12-2005 10:51 AM


What happened to those Raelian cloned babies by the way?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Raelian1, posted 04-12-2005 10:51 AM Raelian1 has not replied

roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 267 of 296 (198579)
04-12-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Raelian1
04-12-2005 10:51 AM


Well that's a new one...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Raelian1, posted 04-12-2005 10:51 AM Raelian1 has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 268 of 296 (200241)
04-18-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Bonobojones
04-08-2005 6:04 PM


but ... don't forget the sea anchor stones!!! (bashing in the sides)
welcome back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Bonobojones, posted 04-08-2005 6:04 PM Bonobojones has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Bonobojones, posted 04-19-2005 3:51 PM RAZD has replied

Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 296 (200439)
04-19-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by RAZD
04-18-2005 9:01 PM


Good ta be back. I've been battling creationists over at military.com.
Ya find fun where ever ya can.

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by RAZD, posted 04-18-2005 9:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2005 9:12 PM Bonobojones has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 270 of 296 (200545)
04-19-2005 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Bonobojones
04-19-2005 3:51 PM


and some find work where they want to

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Bonobojones, posted 04-19-2005 3:51 PM Bonobojones has not replied

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