Existence of Demons (and Angels)

I'm going to be blunt - your current posts make you come off as an arrogant prick (with a fortune cookie stuck up your ass).

That's all very cute, but what does it mean beyond "I think it, I think it's really cool, and if you don't agree with me it's because you haven't tried hard enough". Bull. This is typical theist arrogance. The attitude that says "If you don't agree with me then you have a problem" is rank, disgusting arrogance and you are demonstrating it very effectively. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are defficient. It means they may be wrong. How do you decide who's right? By looking at evidence (not Faith's "witness evidence" either) if any exists. Otherwise you're just sharing opinions, and you know what they say opinions are like. You don't know what I see. You are wrong to claim that you do. Once you admit the possibility that I, or more importantly anyone who disagrees with you, may in fact be seeing more than you, you will have taken a real step.Also, don't give me the old saw about how I can't understand a believers standpoint because I am not one (I was and no longer am) or that I wasn't a "real" believer becasue I would never have left the faith if I were. I have been where you are.This is the behavior G. Krull was commenting on and he was right. For one, your idea that your subjective opinion is of any value. It could be the result of insanity, drugs, or just good old fashioned stupidity. No one has any way of knowing, so we have learned to use the scientific method and to determine fact. As I said, make a staement as to your opinion and no one will care. Make a statement of fact and try and use nothing but your opinion to support it and you'll get people riled up around here.Finally, my statement that "I go with fact, not opinion" refers to the fact that I make every effort to keep my opinion where it belongs and limit my claims of fact to actual facts. This is something that many theists on this board seem to have a real problem with.

ood point, Asgara. I'm sorry I pasted that link. Well, I've got to go. But please check online for some proofs of creationalism for me, will ya?

At this point I certainly will not. I have read the article you cite. It concludes that the only two sources for an historical Christ are the Bible and the writings of Josephus. I will accept the writer's contention up to that point.The writings of Josephus are highly contreversial and most scholars believe the passages about Jesus were post hoc additions. I am not prepared to make that statment unsupported, so I will be locating some supporting research to cite.As to the historical value of the new testament (I think it is obvious that the old testament is worthless historically), I also assert that it is no good source. Again, I will be back with references.By the way, your interpertation of the nature of the infidels website seems to be very mistaken.I will be back with references.

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Hm, another victim of the secularist educational nightmare.

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If knowledge and learning must be avoided to maintain a faith, is it a faith worthy of having?

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You don't read very carefully. Knowledge and learning are much to be desired, but secularist education misguides people.{EDIT: The topic was losing faith in God by learning about mythology. Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view. There's PLENTY to learn about mythology from a Christian point of view that would certainly not compromise one's faith.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-21-2005 01:24 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-21-2005 01:26 PM

All around you.

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You don't read very carefully. Knowledge and learning are much to be desired, but secularist education misguides people.

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How so?

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{EDIT: The topic was losing faith in God by learning about mythology. Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view.

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But don't you consider all mythologies from a secular (maning "unbeliever") point of view, save your own?

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There's PLENTY to learn about mythology from a Christian point of view that would certainly not compromise one's faith.

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Like I said, if learning about any mythology, including Christian mythology, from a secular point of view causes people to lose their faith, then that faith must not have been very strong or worthy of having in the first place.If you can't learn how people who do not think like you view your faith without losing that faith, then doesn't that mean that learning and knowledge is dangerous to your faith, and is such a fragile and tenuouous and anti-learning faith worth having?

Hi Faith, this one statement sums up perfectley the mindset of many theist. "there is no evidence that could disprove..." Stating that shuts out any possiblity of there EVER being evidence of any kind that would sway your personal beliefs.Thats like saying: This man is not guilty and there is nothing you can show me, no amount of evidence will sway my belief that this man is guilty. Regardless of witnesses, murder weapon, video data of him committing the crime, motive, Nothing you can show me will sway me.Well ok...faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence....and now faith is believing in something regardless of evidence.How strong is your faith? If you and I were to go up in a plane and I had a parachute and you did not. I put my faith in the laws of physics and the body of knowlege of science. You put your fatih in God that you will not fall to your death.
I submit as evidence that you would not take this challenge that your faith is nothing more than lip service.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Again, prove it.Wait, you don't have to. You believe it in spite of a lack of evidence and with the declaration that there is no evidence that can change your mind. Of course, since Faith believes it, it must be true.Let's see... holding a belief not only with no proof but in spite of any imaginable proof to the contrary; what would one call that?

My education in mythology was wholly personal, begun by me and conducted with no guidance beyond wide reading. I was a Christian at the time and my initial forays were in the spirit of looking for a explaining parallels to Christianity. You see, it was done from a Christian point of view.It soon became apparent to me that the facts I was finding led to a single conclusion... all myths (including Christianity) teach the same lessons. The next question that occurred to me was "Since they all teach the same lessons, why is Christianity inherently better?" I found no answer and still haven't. Simply put, their isn't one.So, your ill-informed ranting about a "secular education nightmare" aside, you were completely wrong about my history of learning about myth. You are, yet again, wrong and arrogant, or perhaps you just don't read very well.You say that there is plenty to learn about myth that will not compromise a Christians faith. Well, after the week it takes to learn all that, there is a lot MORE to learn about myth that will make any thinking person start to have some doubts. That being the case, Faith, you are probably safe in reading all the myth you want and need have no fear of your faith being compromised.

I'd call it a lie myself, not that you are intentionally lying, more like believing a lie yourself. Point is: there's a LOT of proof. Most of it is in the Bible, but there's tons of proof there, all witness proof. And there is also the occasional extrabiblical archaeological backup to validate the Bible itself.

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Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view.

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My education in mythology was wholly personal, begun by me and conducted with no guidance beyond wide reading. I was a Christian at the time and my initial forays were in the spirit of looking for a explaining parallels to Christianity. You see, it was done from a Christian point of view.

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It soon became apparent to me that the facts I was finding led to a single conclusion... all myths (including Christianity) teach the same lessons. The next question that occurred to me was "Since they all teach the same lessons, why is Christianity inherently better?" I found no answer and still haven't. Simply put, their isn't one.

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Yes, most of the religions -- and myths too I guess, depending on what you are referring to -- agree with Christianity on basic morality and wisdom for living, even down to versions of the Golden Rule. But that's not the meat of Christianity. Nobody is a Christian based only on the morality.

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So, your ill-informed ranting about a "secular education nightmare" aside, you were completely wrong about my history of learning about myth. You are, yet again, wrong and arrogant, or perhaps you just don't read very well.

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Sorry for the false assumption. I stand corrected.

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You say that there is plenty to learn about myth that will not compromise a Christians faith. Well, after the week it takes to learn all that, there is a lot MORE to learn about myth that will make any thinking person start to have some doubts. That being the case, Faith, you are probably safe in reading all the myth you want and need have no fear of your faith being compromised.

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No, I meant that a Christian can learn everything about all myths without endangering his/her faith. The similarities with Christianity confirm its universal applicability, the differences confirm its unique message.

And you would be right and that is what you are doing. You don't understand what constitutes evidence or proof and you are mistakenly accepting faulty examples of it.As I have said before, believe what you will, but when making claims of fact, bring some evidence along.

The metaphors involved are a good deal deeper and more profound then you imply. You oversimplify myth with such a cavalier dismissal and by implying that there is "meat" to christianity that does not exist in other myths, you do both yourself and the grand body of myth that exists a disservice. You also display your ignorance of myth.Oh, by the way, religion and myth are the same thing. Only if the one learning does not consider the matter too deeply. No, the similarities show the universality of the human experience and the differences are nothing more them cultural.

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,but there is no evidence that could disprove my basic belief in the God of the Bible,

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Hi Faith, this one statement sums up perfectley the mindset of many theist. "there is no evidence that could disprove..." Stating that shuts out any possiblity of there EVER being evidence of any kind that would sway your personal beliefs.

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Thats like saying: This man is not guilty and there is nothing you can show me, no amount of evidence will sway my belief that this man is guilty. Regardless of witnesses, murder weapon, video data of him committing the crime, motive, Nothing you can show me will sway me.

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No, it's not like that at all. It's simply saying that I am certain that there is no such evidence. I have no idea what evidence COULD possibly disprove it, I can't even think of what conditions would apply, and I am absolutely certain that there are none. This is not at all a statement of REFUSAL to recognize evidence as you and others try to make of it, simply certainty that it doesn't exist.

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Well ok...faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence....and now faith is believing in something regardless of evidence.

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I disagree. Faith in God is based on powerful evidence of His existence and His trustworthiness, and it couldn't be otherwise. Nobody can have faith in anything/anyone without plenty of evidence for its/his reliability. We aren't built like that.

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How strong is your faith? If you and I were to go up in a plane and I had a parachute and you did not. I put my faith in the laws of physics and the body of knowlege of science. You put your fatih in God that you will not fall to your death. I submit as evidence that you would not take this challenge that your faith is nothing more than lip service.

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I suppose you meant to say IF I would not take this challenge then my faith is not real? Well, as C.S. Lewis said in one way and Pascal in another, IIRC, if you're going to challenge the idea of God it helps if you know what the idea of God IS that you're challenging. You are challenging nobody's idea of God that I'm aware of, certainly not mine, so the only faith that can fail this test is a faith of your invention, not faith as my God requires it of me.As for faith that God won't let the plane crash, not at all, I can't assume such a thing. That's not Christian faith, in fact that's testing God. In fact being there without a parachute would be testing God in the first place if I'm there just to prove to you that I have the "faith" to be there without it.As for your faith in the laws of physics and knowledge of science, there's no law of nature that promises you safety if, say, the laws of physics of an unexpected ice storm cause the law of gravity to defeat the laws of aerodynamic stability. The laws of physics have no more interest in keeping you alive than killing you, and it wouldn't do you any good to plead with them to be merciful either. I suppose it's mostly an academic point, but your faith has to be in, not the laws of physics but the pilot, the designer and builder, the maintenance crew, the people who track and route the flight from the tower, the weather report, and the sheer mad hope that somebody with one of those guns that can shoot down aircraft is not aiming it at your flight or at least has a lousy aim if he is.Anyway faith is not the crazy idea that God won't let me be hurt or even die. I can pray, however, and hope He'll hear and heed. He often does, but He might not; it's always a possibility. When your number's up your number's up, but as a Christian I have no reason to fear death. My faith is in His good will to me personally, and that I will be blessed in death as in life. That in fact could end up being the demonstration of my faith you are asking for, though of course futile for your purposes. When the laws of physics that brought the plane up decide to bring it down toward a snowcovered granite cliff, you might be in a panic since the laws of physics don't promise you any kind of blessing from death. But meanwhile I'd be quite calm and praying and probably trying to get you to acknowledge Christ before impact.P.S. There is nothing whatever in the Bible that is opposed to science and the laws of nature. Science is the gift of God.