Don't turn my God-fearing kid gay!

It comes down to how homosexuality is viewed by the Christian-right as a disease that plagues the sinful. Something that needs to be cured by the church. Apparently it's highly contagious as well.

Maybe I'm steering this hideously off topic, but can we just focus on that view a moment? I know these are arguments that have been rehearsed a thousand times before.What part of the gayness is the problem? Obviously if its anal sex then most lesbians are okay and loads of hetero couples are doomed.If its the non-productiveness, then infertile couples are equally doomed.If its the unnaturalness... well, that's just a useless argument - mainly because the idea of "naturalness" is so malleable. If I had my way, we'd all go and live on the savannah, clad in nothing but the simple virtues of the ruthless hunter-gatherer.If its loving someone whose the same sex as you, then the claim that gay people "choose" to be gay seems a mite harsh. Are people seriously saying that people choose to fall in love or lust with people of the same sex, especially in countries where it makes your life much more difficult, because they want to be naughty? It doesn't make any sense to me. I can't see how it can make any sense to others.And if its not any of those things, what is it?Okay. I feel better now. Sorry.Editted to add final thought...This message has been edited by Tusko, 04-22-2005 09:16 AMeditted again to allow for the possibility of lesbians who enjoy anal sex.This message has been edited by Tusko, 04-22-2005 09:17 AM

Well as far as the reasoning, I think it's the simple act of "laying with a man like you would a woman." I assume it is equally harsh to lay with a woman as you would a man, if you're a woman. To my understanding this is the only specifically anti-homosexual comments that Christians use against them. I'm sure someone knows the specifics better than I do.As for the actual reason why it's such a big issue, I believe it's just the xenophobic nature of faith-based initiatives.This message has been edited by dsv, Friday, April 22, 2005 09:56 AM

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If its loving someone whose the same sex as you, then the claim that gay people "choose" to be gay seems a mite harsh. Are people seriously saying that people choose to fall in love or lust with people of the same sex, especially in countries where it makes your life much more difficult, because they want to be naughty? It doesn't make any sense to me. I can't see how it can make any sense to others.

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Heres how it works:
- what they are doing is sinful, says the bible
- if its a sin, then it is indicative of your moral failings
- therefore, being gay must be a "lifestyle choice" of the immoral
- therefore, any acknowledgement of homosexuality is "promoting" it, and
- it can presumably be "taught", or people can be seduced into itWhy? Because we know its a sin, and therefore you had must have had a choice to do the godly thing but chose not to.Mad I know but thats roughly how the analysis is constructed. And this does mean that people think of it as an affectation, like wearing a safety pin through your nose, and something you could give up if you were truly moral.IMO, this is becuase most religion is about saying "me good them bad".This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-22-2005 10:00 AM

http://EvC Forum: The bible and homosexualityhttp://EvC Forum: Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality. EvC Forum: The bible and homosexuality: Round 3Written by moi:

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Let's start with Leviticus. Leviticus 18:22 states, "you shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."

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Leviticus is, of course, old testament. Most Christians these days ignore the majority of the teachings in the old testaments for obvious reasons: they're considered outdated to our moral standards today.

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Leviticus 21:9 states, "A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death."

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Now really, do you think, with our modern sense of morality, that we can ever justify burning someone alive?

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Leviticus 12:4-5 states, "and then she shall spend thirty-three days more in becoming purified of her blood; she shall not touch anything sacred nor enter the sanctuary till the days of her purification are fulfilled. If she gives birth to a girl, for fourteen days she sahll be as unclean as at her menstruation, after which she shall spend sixty-six days in becoming purified of her blood."

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Ok, to plainly put it, these verses forbids a woman from entering church for 42 days after giving birth. The Catholic church has completely ignored this verse as far as creating their policies go. To our moral standards today, the notion of a woman somehow "unclean" for 42 days after giving birth is absurd.

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Leviticus 25:44 states, "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations."

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Leviticus 25:45, 46 states, "You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slavesyou may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

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These verses clearly justify slavery, given that slaves are bought from neighboring states. Verse 25:46 clearly states that slaves are property.

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During the 18th and 19th centuries, many Americans used these verses to justify slavery in this country. In other words, Leviticus was used to justify one of the darkest and most embarrassing part of our history.

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Let us go back to Leviticus 18:22. If we think that this part of Leviticus in the old testament holds for our modern morality, then why not the other verses that I mentioned above? The verses that I mentioned above are only a few of the examples from the old testament where our modern sense of morality condemns as immoral.

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If Leviticus 18:22 is the only thing that is telling you that homosexuality is wrong, I hope that you rethink about your position on the issue.

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We have all heard the old saying if you play with fire you will get burned. Homosexuality is the same way. First the spritual facts. Sodom and gomorrah.Sodom & GomorrahAnd an interesting link if you wish to look at it. And read chapter 19 verses 1-25 of Genesis if you will.Now for the scientific.Sucide rate for homos is 20 times higher and they die 30 years younger on average.And we have all heard of stds. Over 90% of homos that die die from aids.And they can have sex with 100 to 1000 diffrent partners a year. If we let it spread to other people and teach that it is ok and safe (wich is a lie) then we wont have much of a country left after a while. And then you can all say "Hail Wen Jiabao!"(chinese premier). And he treats everyone fairly. He makes sure everyone gets there one bowl of rice, glass of water, couple shakes of salt, and 1/12 cup of sugar daily. And you will never get bored cause he will allways find something for you to do 16 hours a day.This message has been edited by Stuco, 04-22-2005 07:46 PM

Hi Stuco, welcome to EvC.By the way, you're post is simply crap amd nonsense.signed.A Christian.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Allright, let's see you do better.By the way did you look at the others that where filled with crap and nonsense or did you decied to be bias and skip to mine(it must be pick on newwcomers day). I know the last part was kinda sarcastic but it could happen. Plus it made a point.

All I can say is wow.I think I have lurked on these forums for years and although I have only recently started actively posting, I think I can tell you, Stuco, your ignorance isn't appreciated from either side of the great debate.What you're preaching is pure hate and it's disgusting. Your numbers are pure nonsense as Jar mentioned, and your attitude is bullshit.I have the upmost respect for Christians on these forums and any organized religion follower that has respect for science and is open to discussion but you sir are exactly the kind of person that is not only giving your faith a bad name but also your country.You are exactly the kind of individual that supports this kind of legislation in the OP. Your lie-soaked propaganda precedes you. I can't imagine any God or smarter-than-human being wanting you in their kingdom of eternal life, get a clue.Pfft!ON EDIT: To be fair, I suppose I should mention (since this IS a forum of debate), if you have any actual evidence and real numbers you would like to bring up, I'd be happy to prove them wrong.This message has been edited by dsv, Friday, April 22, 2005 08:20 PM

O Casear----
Hince wilt thou lift up mount Olympus?Great Ceaser----
Does not Brutes bootless kneel?Speak hands for me![Ceaser stabed]Et tu, Brute? Then fall Ceaser.If Jar is a true Christian he will defend me because he knows what is rghit cause the Holy Spirit of Jesus would have told him. A true Christian belives that Jesus is the only way to Hevan and would beleive the things that all the bible says and would not deveate from it. If they beleive they affirm that God is truthfull and are givin the right to become the children of God. The things that God teaches are only foolish to those who are fools. The fool has said in his heart "There is NO God". He shall not inherit the kindom of Heaven. But Jesus came to save us from are sin and wrong doing so that the fool will turn away from being a fool and will be with him in Heaven. Love so great no one in the world could match it then or now.I do not hate. I love my enemy cause that is what God teaches(Mathew5:44). And Jesus came to fufill the law not to abolish it.If Christians can not stand up for each other no one in this world will. But we have a freind in Jesus who will never turn his back on us cause he loves us and cares for us for that is why he came. If God be with us who can be aginst us.You have thrown good stones for no good reson. I know that I will enter the Kingdom of Heaven with everyone else that belives that Jesus is God and came to save us from are sins. But there is one who wants you to enter his kingdom and he does not love you but hates you. Yet you serve him and his purpose. He will be your father ONLY if you let him(John8:40-44).And you got me! My facts where wrong. Instead it is 100%, 50 times and 40 years. There you happy! I didnt want to give away all the facts away. Wanted to leave some for a surprise ending.By the way did you even look at the stuff I put on there(the link the verses). They have even goten the Turkish goverment to agree with there findings on the arc.This message has been edited by Stuco, 04-22-2005 10:08 PM

This looks like the return/revenge of desdamona. Right off the bat, I can point out at least 3 logical fallacies that he/she just used. Except, I'm staying out of this one. Finals are approaching and I don't want to have high blood pressure during study hours. Peace!

Im sure you can it will probly be something to the tune of your an idiot hateful and a knownothing just about like dsv said.

But yet he does because he loves me because he says so and he loves you to and has given the same gift to you if you so choose to take it. I was once like you but I was turned and saved by the grace of God.

let's face some spiritual facts, then. i've posted this before, i will post it again.

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wmscott writes:

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To gain God's approval, a person must stop doing what God considers wrong. (Duh!)

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Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard

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do you shave? cut your hair? you should stop, otherwise you'll never gain god's approval.

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Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD.

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got any tatoos or piercings? those are gonna have to go too. otherwise, you'll never gain god's approval.

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Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I [am] the LORD.

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do you work saturdays? you should stop that, otherwise you'll never gain god's approval.

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Exd 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

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eat cheese on your sandwich today? better not do that, or you'll never gain god's approval.

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Lev 11:7-8 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

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was that a ham and cheese sandwich? maybe a bacon cheeseburger? better not have any of those either, or you'll never gain god's approval.

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Lev 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

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do hug your wife when she's having her period? better not do that. you'll never gain god's approval. oh, but you say, homosexuality is an ABOMINATION. alright, bring on the abominations.

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Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you:

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well, that pretty much screws red lobster. eat there, and you're going to hell.

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Lev 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon [all] four, [shall be] an abomination unto you.

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kfc's out too. and i certainly hope you didn't eat turkey last tahnksgiving, otherwise, you're going to hell.

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Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.

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don't touch cockroaches. or you're going to hell.

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Lev 19:7 And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it [is] abominable; it shall not be accepted.

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leave your leftovers in the fridge too long? you're going to hell.

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tell me, sinner, are you right with god? or do you persist in your sin?

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want some more goodies?

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Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

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Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

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oh, and side point. there's nothing in genesis 19 to indicate homosexuality at all. you're confused over this point:

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Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

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men in both verses is אַנְשֵׁי, which is entirely non-gender specific. it usually referes to groups of people of indeterminant gender, or the whole human race (or everyone in a city).so when it says "men" in both cases, it has nothing to do with whether the people are male or female. and "know" in this sense does not seem to be referring to sex, either, but that point is arguable.in other words, genesis 19 is not a case for supporting gay-bashing.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-23-2005 02:01 AM

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אָרַח

You know, for a newbie you are acting like you know all of us really well. Mind telling us where this anger is coming from?