Existence of Demons (and Angels)

Yes faith can be weak and it needs to be protected for that reason. It's very worth it, like something precious that can be lost. And we absolutely DO need to know how the world thinks -- NOT knowing is what exposes young Christians to a loss of faith when they hit college unprepared for the worldly attitudes there. They need to be inoculated with a heavy dose of all of it in a Christian context all through their childhood.

Hi Faith, "I am certain there is no such evidence." Hello??
Thats my point again. "absoultley certain..." Again you make my point. Again contradiction within the same utterance. Oh I get it now, you can accept only evidence that supports your premise..Silly me. For once I'd like to see someone of such unshakeable faith back it up with more than: ""I believe because it is just so obvious the truth. I am certain that this is how it is because it could not be any other way.""" Feel good, catch phrase fluff. Avoidance denial and fear. It is very common.I do not need to believe there is some "blessing" after death to assure me or to comfort me from my mortality. But I understand that some do. And that fine, what ever blows your hair back. Just remember though there are many who do not share your beliefs who are just as convinced that they're beliefs are the truth. So what makes them wrong and you right? What makes your personal faith and belief the end all of the truth. Arrogance and Ignorance. Arrogance in thinking that of all the faiths and beliefs yours is THE right one.
And the ignorance of willfully denying any truth that may possibly put a chink in that self rightous armor you call your faith. If that plane is going down you will be shitting your pants just like everyone else on that plane. Get over yourself. Ummm wrong. Virgin birth: please show scientific evidence of how a human female can concieve and deliver without sperm. Also site how a human female ova can form a blastula and become a embryo in the absence of male genetic information. Also explain how a human can only have 23 chromosomes and live to the age of 30.Also please explain how Noah could of possibly loaded every existing taxa of organisms in the time frame alloted by the Flood accounts.In addition please show mathmatically how a human adult male can walk on water without breaking the surface tension of the water. Please show your calculations.And last,,,Please tell me how 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and not 3.
*edit mispelled...Peace be with you.This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-21-2005 11:15 PMThis message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-21-2005 11:23 PM

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Well, obviously, normally one can't. That's the whole point, Jesus' birth by a virgin is not a normal event. It's a miracle, a special event, a child's being formed in the womb directly by God instead of in the usual way, so that his Father is literally God, and obviously He was given all the requisite male genetic information and numbers of chromosomes by Him directly. It has crossed my mind that His genetic information would be fascinating. Plants were not named. God simply preserved all the seed in other ways. Marine life took its chances in the oceans. God no doubt sent the land animals to Noah. Time frame? It took a hundred years to get the thing built. You think that's too short? He's God as well as a human adult male. I'll leave the calculations to you.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-22-2005 03:27 AM

A minor aside here, but I thought that you considered historical sciences as invalid, particularly if extrabiblical. It seems contradictory to seek supporting data from such a nonwitness source.

Well, if you want an event in the Bible that is not described as a miracle and is contrary to science, try this from Genesis 30 (NASB)

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Yes faith can be weak and it needs to be protected for that reason.

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...protected from knowledge and learning, because the "wrong kind" of knowledge and learning (like learning about science, for example) can cause people to lose their faith, right?

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It's very worth it, like something precious that can be lost. And we absolutely DO need to know how the world thinks -- NOT knowing is what exposes young Christians to a loss of faith when they hit college unprepared for the worldly attitudes there.

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Right.Being exposed to many different ideas, including science, is dangerous to your kind of religious faith, isn't it?Well, my question remains.Is a faith that depends upon ignorance and being sheltered from learning a wothwhile faith to have? Would your God wish you to remain ignorant of his creation?

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They need to be inoculated with a heavy dose of all of it in a Christian context all through their childhood.

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Do you mean they must be "innoculated" against letting in any knowledge or teaching that contradicts their dogma?Well, that sounds like a faith that is always going to be weak and will always cause it's adherents to avoid learning and knowledge.

You thought wrong. Witness evidence is simply most of what we have and it's sufficient, but other kinds of evidence help when the Bible is being attacked the way so many here attack it.

Hi Faith,
Miracles are contrary to the natural laws of the Universe.
For as long as phenomenon have occured beyond mans ability to understand it there have been "miracles" or superstition to explain the unknown. Eventually through the process of scientific methodology the unknown is revealed as part of the natural order of how reality plays out. The miracle is life itself. The miracle is how
energy/matter has become sentient. Nature is a miraculous. God or what ever the mechanism that is behind it all is far more than some mythology dating back to the ancient middle east. Humans are intelligent thinking creatures that have evolved to the point of asking what is this mechanism, how can I understand it? If we never did that we would still be throwing rocks at the moon and believing that the Earth is flat. God (if he exist) would be very disapointed indeed. Peace be with you.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

I've tried many times to show you that you are wrong, but you prefer your own opinion so I'll leave you to it.

Commentaries on that passage say pretty much only that God blessed Jacob for his industriousness, one suggesting that possibly that sort of method was common in Jacob's day, but none treat it as a claim to anything scientific. The passage itself gives no clue, simply says Jacob did this and these were the results.

Of course they are. That's the definition of a miracle after all. God made the universe; God established its laws; and only God can break them, but He has done so only on a very few occasions for very specific purposes.

Miracles are contrary to the known laws of the universe.
God never breaks laws. When God acts, His action is in and of itself a law. The law of God. Laws do not exist without God. Why? Because ideas do not exist without God. Why? Because ideas are expressions of intelligence. Human wisdom is not the source of explaining a universe. Why? Because creation can only be explained by a Creator.
If human wisdom was our source, we would be creators. Creators of ideas, concepts, explanations, and words themselves.The Bible says that in the beginning was the word. Words are spoken truth or explanations of reality. One thing that we may agree on. We as humans were not in the beginning.

And that is the problem. It is all very well to say that nothing in the Bible is opposed to science, but if every claim contrary to our scientific knowledge is assumed to be due to some sort of supernatural intervention, and exempted on that ground, then the claim is empty.

God certainly never breaks His MORAL law, but I've never heard that about His physical laws. However, some miracles are more in keeping with natural law than others. The sun standing still and the waters of a sea standing upright for the passage of some millions of people are certainly contrary to natural law. But on the other hand healing is a natural process, so when it occurs dramatically and rapidly by God's answer to prayer, against all normal expectation, it is more like a restoration of nature than a violation of natural laws.

But it makes sense that if something violates natural law it IS due to supernatural intervention. That's a problem only for those who don't believe in the supernatural, not for those who do.