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Author Topic:   Simple evidence for ID
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 503 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 16 of 135 (201870)
04-24-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Trump won
04-24-2005 4:30 PM


chris writes:
I don't know wheree he gets this stuff.
Perhaps because I used to believe this?
I've taken back this thread and I intend to pursue it.

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 Message 10 by Trump won, posted 04-24-2005 4:30 PM Trump won has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 503 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 17 of 135 (201876)
04-24-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by dsv
04-24-2005 4:15 PM


dsv writes:
The question is, was this the goal? A self-aware human mind created by "The Creator" that would expand upon itself through knowledge and technological advancement?
It is also possible that the imperfection in the human mind (the physical barriers) are meant as an incentive for us to better ourselves. Why would we build computers and softwares to compute things for us if we have the mindpower to do them ourselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by dsv, posted 04-24-2005 4:15 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by dsv, posted 04-24-2005 5:35 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-24-2005 6:22 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 18 of 135 (201880)
04-24-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
04-24-2005 5:24 PM


Troy writes:
Why would we build computers and softwares to compute things for us if we have the mindpower to do them ourselves?
Good question. But if I can plan devil's advocate for a second (no pun intended), is this technological advancement part of God's plan or part of God's gift of free will?
If I may be so bold, it seems that often times the bad things humans do is written off to free will and the good deeds are due to God's divine plan.
I'm not well versed in Christian scripture but to the best of my knowledge God created humans to be the most intelligent creatures in the Universe (Earth?). What happens when the lines of biology and technological engineering blur through technology? What happens when we create an "awake" machine? I know, I'm getting heavy into philosophy and futurism here...
Back on topic...
There is a myth that every single creature created by God plays a specific role and creates the balance that we see. I argue that this is not so, the ecosystem evolves to changes (although sometimes slowly, so don't run outside and start killing off species).
Exhibit A: The Aye-Aye (A face not even its mother could love | Science | The Guardian)
I mean... come on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 04-24-2005 5:24 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 135 (201884)
04-24-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Trump won
04-24-2005 4:53 PM


how about filling yours out on your proposed thread then?
what is your simple evidence to ID and how do we determine if it is design or "fate" that has been behind it?
"que sera sera" is not much to base a theology on.
I have other questions if you are going to pursue this.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Trump won, posted 04-24-2005 4:53 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 135 (201885)
04-24-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dsv
04-24-2005 5:35 PM


what a cute baby ...
with a specialized finger just for extracting bugs from deep inside wood burrows.
what's to say what happens when the interface between man and machine blurs and neural connections are possible?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1266 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 21 of 135 (201888)
04-24-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
04-24-2005 5:41 PM


IKt may take a little while but I'll get a topic going

listen to phil collins and nas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 04-24-2005 5:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18338
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 22 of 135 (201898)
04-24-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
04-24-2005 5:24 PM


Nothing will be impossible for them....
troy writes:
It is also possible that the imperfection in the human mind (the physical barriers) are meant as an incentive for us to better ourselves. Why would we build computers and softwares to compute things for us if we have the mindpower to do them ourselves?
Well lets take language as an example,ok?
wikipedia writes:
Scientists do not yet agree on when language was first used by humans (or their ancestors). Estimates range from about two million years ago, during the time of Homo habilis, to as recently as forty thousand years ago, during the time of Cro-Magnon man.
So...whether created or evolved, language was developing...probably in line with the brain.
Then, the Bible says:
KJV writes:
Gen 11:6-7= And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Now...if the Bible is true, why would god scramble everybodys lingo? Could it be that they wanted to all raise up as a people that did not need Him?
Well.. if languge was a purely evolutionary development, is it in the interests of survival that nobody understands anybody else?
Even today, professions have specialized language. Go to dental college and learn a whole new terminology. This is also what makes "educated" minds able to distance themselves from mere simpletons.
Words don't have to be complicated, however. I can say "tru-dat" and say in one catchphrase the equivalent of saying "That is very correct and very relevant to the topic at hand".
Humans do not blindly evolve. We have intelligence and motive.
It makes it much more obvious to me that a supreme intelligence and a supreme motive and plan is behind it all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 04-24-2005 5:24 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by CK, posted 04-24-2005 6:37 PM Phat has replied
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CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 23 of 135 (201903)
04-24-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-24-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Nothing will be impossible for them....
quote:
Well.. if languge was a purely evolutionary development, is it in the interests of survival that nobody understands anybody else?
I have no idea what this is suppose to mean - it makes no sense at all.
Americans pronouce the same words in different ways to us brits, indeed many words that were common now have different means. Now take thousands of years.....
You have ascribed something to evolution that has no place there.

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 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-24-2005 6:22 PM Phat has replied

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 503 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 24 of 135 (201905)
04-24-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dsv
04-24-2005 5:35 PM


dsv writes:
If I may be so bold, it seems that often times the bad things humans do is written off to free will and the good deeds are due to God's divine plan.
You have just stumbled into the age old question of where did evil/bad things come from?
I'm not well versed in Christian scripture but to the best of my knowledge God created humans to be the most intelligent creatures in the Universe (Earth?).
From what I know, we are meant to to have dominion over all other creatures on Earth. However, the Genesis account doesn't really say if we are the most intelligent creatures in the universe.
Gen 1:26-28
quote:
Then god said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
There is a myth that every single creature created by God plays a specific role and creates the balance that we see. I argue that this is not so, the ecosystem evolves to changes (although sometimes slowly, so don't run outside and start killing off species).
I think this myth is due more to ignorance than anything. If this is true, christians should be the most environmental people, not the atheistic liberals. If every creature has a purpose and that everything is in this great ever unchanging balance, then it would be really bad if we start wiping out whole populations, which we have been doing for the last thousand years or so.

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 503 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 25 of 135 (201907)
04-24-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-24-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Nothing will be impossible for them....
phat writes:
Well.. if languge was a purely evolutionary development, is it in the interests of survival that nobody understands anybody else?
You are forgetting that populations of humans are seperated by geographical barriers, most notably distance. Your statement above assumes that everybody lived in one place.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 135 (201908)
04-24-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Trump won
04-24-2005 5:52 PM


s'okay.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 135 (201909)
04-24-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by CK
04-24-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Nothing will be impossible for them....
I disagree.
different code words could have survival benefit in battles between competing tribes, as well as having to come up with new words for new experiences.
there are studies that map the evolution of the various languages and dialects, and they match the cultural dispersal maps.
there are few base languages, which shows that while most have evolved from others (including some cross-connections), it is quite possible that language itself had numerous independant evolutions
{edited to add punctuation to last paragraph for clarity}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 04*24*2005 05:52 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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 Message 23 by CK, posted 04-24-2005 6:37 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 28 of 135 (201933)
04-24-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
04-24-2005 3:17 PM


when your classmate dies of heart disease or cancer, he realise that human beings are not perfect after all.
mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 04-24-2005 3:17 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 29 of 135 (201972)
04-24-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by dsv
04-24-2005 4:15 PM


brain / computer semi-rant
I agree with your original question ("things are CREATED to serve a purpose. What is that purpose?"), but I completely disagree with your assessment of how "The mind can be expanded upon."
The brain is NOT comparable to a digital computer. If it truly were, we would have artificial minds already. You need concrete proposals for the entire system to show that brains can be improved upon, and you don't have it. You're simply hand-waving, but philosophical musinngs about "possibility" based on ignorance (i.e. the lack of a full systematic proposal) is meaningless here.

an order of magnitude higher than most estimates of the power of a human brain
Comparing numbers of instructions that can be executed is meaningless. The number of instructions needed in order to execute a program varies based on the hardware architecture. The computers you're talking about are general purpose. Brains are not. The hardware is optimized to execute the types of operations necessary for things like object recognition, memory storage, etc.--exactly the tasks it's been "designed" for.
The architecture of the hardware dictates how 'efficiently' you can program something. For example, in your system, memory is stored outside of your 'processor'--in other words, it takes cycles just to retrieve a piece of information to process it. Another example, since your system works with a single processor, you're doing everything serially. The brain works with parallel networks. In order to simulate this parallel execution, you're going to have to swap.
You can't compare hardware architecture like this. The architectures are so different, the software is not related. Executing the software on each has very different costs. There's no reason to think that your single processor system is going to be able to functionally simulate the important features of the brain (see below), let alone how many orders of magnitude of instructions would be added in order to actually program it.
Neurons are slow.
Yes, but you're looking at individual features of a fully developed system where some bad features exist because they support the good features. You can't criticize the architecture of the brain without offering a better system. Above, you simply propose a single processor. No mention of what software is running or necessary hardware features (storage, execution, resource and power supply mechanism, maintenance system), and necessary features (plasticity, performance with degradation, generalization procedures, solving the binding problem, blah blah)
Your system will have drawbacks as well and, since we're not even close to constructing a self-sustaining system with a human-like mind, it's clear your system will be far inferior to the current human one.
...
Back to the fact that neurons are slow. Neurons are slow because of the biology behind it. In order to make a faster system, you're going to have to use different materials. How many silicon brains can you make? How do you maintain them? What happens if your single processor has a problem?
We lose neurons as we age, rather than adding on additional brainpower.
I wouldn't say this is a property of creating the human mind, but of creating humans which are mortal.
If we did add on additional brainpower, we'd LOSE information. To simply add additional neurons to existing networks simply degrades the performance of the network. You'll lose memories, skills, etc. You'll become more like a child again--easier to learn things, but you know less. It would take work to "re-learn" what you already knew before adding more "brainpower."
There's other ways to add more brainpower, but given the lifespan of the organism, it doesn't make any sense. It's unnecessary. So first ask the creator why we're mortal. We have our current set of brainpower because it's more than enough for the life span that we have.
Neurons cannot be directly "reprogrammed" by our high-level consciousness.
This doesn't have any meaning to me. Why would this be good? Are you proposing that it's better to be conscious of every neuron in your brain?
The software you're talking about doesn't work as step-by-step source code. It's meaningless to "reprogram" a single neuron. Neural networks don't store high-level information locally, but rather distributed across a network.
We can't retain our memories indefinitely.
What makes you think that this is a good thing? Retaining memories indefinitely is expensive in resources. How is it useful? It's not a hard problem to solve computationally with neural networks; just produce more neurons and don't share information across them. If this was cost-effective and useful, no matter the designer (evolution, God), it would have been done.
Propose another system where you can have this kind of storage (you'll probably propose an unlimited store? How often will you have information come in through the eyes? Since retinal neurons fire what, 40 times per second, but you want to increase it, maybe you'll get up to 1GB per second of visual information to store? Of course you'll have to write a program where the hardware does no computations on the visual input, otherwise you won't have a correct record of events. That means a whole lot more cycles for memory retrieval, as every time you retrieve memory, you'll have to reprocess it from scratch in order to make any sense from it. Blah blah...)
We can't transmit thoughts from one brain to another.
That's the purpose of language. In order to transfer information directly between brains, you'd have to guarantee that the information is stored in the same data format. In order to guarantee that, you have to remove the flexibility of coding information based on your past experiences. In other words, you have to hard-code your data format instead of allowing the organism to use self-updating hardware to both code and restore information. Unless you were going to pass both the data AND the decryption device along... and what data do you pass across?
I don't see a system better than language. Maybe you can propose one?
...
All right, I'm done. I'd be happy to listen to your response to this semi-rant. Just taking some pent-up frustration about brains vs. computers out on you. I don't feel that I'm doing a good job, so you should have plenty of loose ends to pick apart here.
Ben

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Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 30 of 135 (201974)
04-24-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
04-24-2005 6:51 PM


Re: Nothing will be impossible for them....
different code words could have survival benefit in battles between competing tribes
That is why the tribe that made up the "your momma is so fat" insult was able to spread its seed across the land...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 04-24-2005 6:51 PM RAZD has replied

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