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Author Topic:   SIMPLE Astronomical Evidence Supports the Bible
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 197 (200620)
04-20-2005 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ptolemy
04-19-2005 5:46 PM


relativity, since sidelined brought it up.
If matter changes as a relation, both sides of a balance scale would change_together over the years.
how is this different than staying the same? if everything changes at rates constant to everything everything else ("as a relation") then it is observably no different than natural laws and constants from an internal perspective.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 109 of 197 (200765)
04-20-2005 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ptolemy
04-20-2005 8:17 PM


hey wait a minute. address my question.
in post 101 of this thread, i asked:
quote:
how is this different than staying the same? if everything changes at rates constant to everything everything else ("as a relation") then it is observably no different than natural laws and constants from an internal perspective.
please explain to me how if things change in relations to one another it is any different than everything staying the same?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ptolemy, posted 04-21-2005 8:00 PM arachnophilia has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 111 of 197 (200808)
04-20-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ptolemy
04-20-2005 9:26 PM


i'm gonna be persistent about this

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 115 of 197 (200884)
04-21-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
04-21-2005 5:31 AM


Re: Simple versus complex evidence
1)What is "the principle that Peter predicted"?
that everything remains the same as it always was. he's misreading the verse. grossly. ignoring things like "grammar."
i'd also like my question answered. if EVERYTHING changes directly related to everything else, what is the net observable effect, and how is it different than nothing changing at all?

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 119 of 197 (201046)
04-21-2005 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ptolemy
04-21-2005 8:00 PM


what?
Today we build atomic clocks which rely on the assumption that internal processes within atoms cannot change their dithering motions and geometry together.
and if they do, what's the difference? if the period of helium decay lengths by a certain percent, and our planet's rotational speed and the laws of gravity change at that same percent, is the clock inaccurate? no.
Time is not only ‘what clock’s measure,’ as Einstein stated.
you've obviously never read einstein. he asserts that time is quite changing. just as space is. mass warps both. he also says that the laws of physics change according to the speed at which things are going, and that everything is relative to your point of observation.
now, there's a set of equations, called lorentz contractions, based on this simple thought experiment.
suppose you're on a train. you fire a gun in the same direction the train is going. how fast does the bullet travel? the speed of the bullet relative to the gun, plus the speed of the train.
now suppose you shine a light in the same direction as the train. how fast is the light going? the speed of light. it can't get any faster.
so what lorentz did was come up with a set of equations that took into account the relativistic differences. now, i messed around with some of these equations in high school. and for everyday life, they don't mean a damned thing. in fact, i had to use special software that would even do the decimal arithmetic after 50 some places. i only started to get significant changes when i significantly approached the speed of light. (i think the first noticeable change was at about 1/10th c. i don't recall)
but there IS a case where we know that the laws of physics DO in fact change in relation to speed. and for all intents and purposes, the difference is so fractional as to be unimportant. ockham's razor, eliminate all the extra needless calculation. i'm not even sure you can tell the differences as an internal observer at relativistic speeds. (anyone know? my physics is a little rusty)
but, if everything is changing in relation to everything else... how can we tell? how is it different than staying the same?
Everyone of our definitions of the fundamentals relies on Aristotle’s Conjecture...
...Once you examine the first principle that Peter predicted and identified,
aristotle was born in 384 bc. he's not what peter was "predicting." modern scientific philosophy and methodological naturalism was already well established when peter wrote. peter was writing about SIGNS and fulfilled prophesies, arguing that the first thing WE AS CHRISTIANS should know is that everyone else will deny that god has done anything new.
you're still misreading the verse.
You may be thinking, the system works. Of course it does - but only in nearby ages and close spaces. We have adjusted it to work in those areas. But the evidence that this symbolic structure is false is:
If matter is a relationship - for which there is simple evidence in the quantum.
so back to sir ockham again. when einstein wrote his theories of special and general relativity, it shook the physics world. huge revolution. and yet we still study newton, and use his rules. they still work. why is that? when quantum theory came out, it revolutionized einstein. yet einstein and newton still work. when string theory came out, it revolutionized quantum mechanics. yet quantum theory is still taught and works, as does newton and einstein.
in fact, some things works better than other depending on how and when they're used. quantum theory is piss-poor for describing the behavious of large objects, and string theory is even worse. yet relativity and newtonian mechanics each work perfectly, depending on the speed. yet relativity and newtonian mechanics can't explain quanta and super strings.
so for the most part, that symbolic structure WORKS, and not only works, but WORKS BETTER than the more intricate understandings.
the evidence that supports the Bible is simple and visible. What we see exactly fits what the Bible states in simple grammatical words.
now, my real area of interest is the bible. and i will tell you flat out that it does not describe the real world accurately. for instance, mustard does not grow any kind of tree, let alone the biggest and the strongest.
there is, quite frankly, a TON of evidence that the bible is not even internally consistent within its books. genesis contradicts itself no more than a page in. proverbs occasionally contradicts itself in the next verse. now this is just literary evidence. i'm not even concerned with archaeology, philosophy, theology, geology, biology, etc. i'm just using simple logic to actually look at the book, and determining that it does not present a simple, straightforward claim to anything, let alone having that claim verified by the real world.
sure, you know, we can ignore that "first principle" of yours, and not require it to make any sense. who cares if it contradicts itself? maybe god changes his mind. maybe he just tricked moses when he said he made plants before man (like genesis 1), and he really meant that he made man before plants (like genesis 2).
oh wait, no. that would make one of them wrong, wouldn't it? which means the word of god lies. which means there's no reason we should trust it, including peter's "first principle."
logic is a bitch, isn't it?

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 145 of 197 (201598)
04-23-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by ptolemy
04-23-2005 6:01 AM


no try again
Arachnophilia states:i'd also like my question answered. if EVERYTHING changes directly related to everything else, what is the net observable effect, and how is it different than nothing changing at all?
There is a vast difference:
that has nothing do with the question i asked. none of that. i'm asking a vague and rhetoric question?
how is everything changing together any different than everything staying the same?
i'm not gonna bother with your misrepresentations of the biblical perspective of the cosmos and the scientific until you tell me what the difference your describing actually is.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-23-2005 08:52 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ptolemy, posted 04-23-2005 11:42 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 157 of 197 (201633)
04-23-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ptolemy
04-23-2005 11:42 PM


Re: A first principle is fundamental to our thinking
You are still not getting what I am saying
no, actually, you're still not getting what i'm saying. i'm not talking about first principles. i'm not basing logic on it. quite the contrary, i'm going around it.
if everything is changing
-- "in relation to everything else," then how is this different than staying the same?
i'm not making any kind of statement. i'm asking a question. you have to explain this principle first -- YOUR first principle.
then, i will work on deciphering what you're talking about, including but not limited to the obvious facts that many philosophers objected to objective reality, and quantum reality and string theory is supposedly founded on this "first principle" yet totally ignores the idea that things stay the same (or even in the same universe).
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-23-2005 10:51 PM

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 161 of 197 (201653)
04-24-2005 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by ptolemy
04-24-2005 12:17 AM


Re: Venusian orbit change?
Archnophilia writes:
hey, i didn't write that!
i'm waiting until we get the fundamental assumption of your argument under control, and then we'll address theological, philosophical, and astronomical concerns.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 163 of 197 (201655)
04-24-2005 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Eta_Carinae
04-24-2005 12:44 AM


Re: Complete nonsense.
If matter is a relationship - for which there is ample quantum evidence
Makes no sense, just stringing words together.
unfortunately, quantum mechanics, in part, has ushered in a new era of existential bullshit, and philosophical mental masturbation. we call it "postmodernism."
this is not the first time i've heard this part of this argument, either. and scarily enough it does have some sense to it (when ptolemy's not trying to put it across anyhow).
matter is essentially the collected sum electron repulsions, and various smaller quantum effects. it's almost all empty space, really. but there's no greater philosophic truth to that. so what if matter is just a relationship of electrical impulses and stuff that isn't even there all the time? on any scale larger than the atom, it doesn't especially matter. matter is still perceptably solid, and physical constants still apply -- otherwise, we'd never have devised them in the firts place. quantum mechanics is just plain bad and inefficient at describing the actions of two car on a road, let alone plants in a solar system.
newtonian mechanics works perfectly well at that. whether or not everything really is in a constant state of flux, with quarks whizzing into and out existance, to the observer at our viewpoint, newtonian mechanics more than adequately functions to describe most of our universe. and where it does not, relativity works.
which is why i posed the question - if we can't tell it's changing, what does it matter?
added by edit:
You know this nonsense wouldn't occur if people didn't blindly follow the musings of Bronze Age goat herders in the Middle East.
or rather, iron age collections of tradition collected by priests in exiled judah. but close enough, usually.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-24-2005 04:15 AM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 165 of 197 (201657)
04-24-2005 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
04-24-2005 5:10 AM


Re: Complete nonsense.
Once you guys can figure out how to keep the space shuttles from blowing up
boo. poor taste.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-24-2005 04:16 AM

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 169 of 197 (201991)
04-24-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
04-24-2005 11:56 AM


Re: Complete nonsense.
I am frustrated with people who dismiss spiritual impartation while seeking better understanding through rigourous subjection of writings to some sort of educated exegesis.
why? this educated exegesis seems to indicate to what extent actual spiritual impartation took place. it lets us know how big of a grain of salt to take thinsg with, and that's important.
Subjective beliefs, while not academic, are not nor ever should be labled as complete nonsense.
what if i think miniature invisible flying ninjas are really responsible for things like gravity? subjective belief -- nonsense?
Perhaps the frustration within this thread centers around our EvC age old conflict regarding science and religion. I will stick with religion
i stick to both. i think it's really silly to ignore either or them, actually. but when you hold this sort of belief, you sort have to realize where the boundaries are of each. religion isn't commenting on how the world got here, it's talking about why and who did it. science isn't talking about who or why any extent other than causal, just how and what. science is concerned with physical reality, religion is concerned with the spirit.
but it does take knowning where to draw the line. when we start treating genesis like a science textbook or a science textbook like the bible, something is wrong.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 176 of 197 (202302)
04-25-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ptolemy
04-25-2005 2:16 PM


no, no, no. one more time.
Your question is a valid question. What is the difference?
you haven't answered my question yet. we'll get to religion, and astrological stuff a bit later. first we need to hash out YOUR first principle.
what is the difference?
what will we observe if everything is changing in direct relation to everything else? list some things:
1.
2.
3.
4.
etc. give me a predication of what we will see, and what we will not see.
now do the same for the reverse. make a list of things we will see or not see if everything is staying the same.
then contrast these two, and point out their distinguishing features. because if everything is changing in a way that it "holds together," it might as well be staying the same.
philosphy and axioms first, the history of science, religion, and astronomy, and how what you're saying is a total contradiction.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 185 of 197 (202622)
04-26-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by CK
04-26-2005 12:51 PM


Re: I'll bow out of this one I think.
yeah. he won't even answer my question about his fundamental (mis)assumption.
i haven't even gotten to some fun stuff yet, like:
quote:
Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation goes, another comes,
But the earth remains the same forever.
(thanks to simple for point that one out, btw)

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