How can evolution be true if there are no between-stage fossils? (+ 1 more question)

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Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]I was right, talking to you is like talk with Wordswordsman[/QUOTE]

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As I said, you don't know how a debate works and you aren't showing
any signs of progress.

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Did you suddenly get tired of our little discussion of Japan?

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You're exactly like Wordswordsman. And you know what he is.Here you are a theist and think that sacrificing one life for another is ok, and I'm an agnostic and think that that is immoral and wrong.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-19-2002]

What this entire debate boils down to is free will and evil. My understanding of these is different from what I see here. In any case:1) God exists
2) God is all good
3) God is all powerful
4) Evil existsNow christians, how can a person believe all of those statements? If God exists as all powerful and good, how does evil exist? You can see the other possiblities, but it seems that all four cannot be true.Some people might bicker about what true evil really is, and whether the evil we see here on earth is true pure evil or just its effects, but the solution I have thought of (tho i doubt i am the first) is this: God made angels, heaven, earth, everything on earth. Therefore if Satan (a fallen angel!) can become a demon, where did the evil come from? God?A) What is good?
Q) What God wants.Evil is the OPPOSITE of God's will. Evil on earth does not have the power of creation, only of desecration and the scorning of God's will for a perfect world. Evil seeks only to ruin and destroy.I'm getting there, keep reading!Since this is getting long...Adam and Eve had free will. They were created to worship and be friends with God. Without free will, worship is meaningless. With free will comes choice and with that the ability to do evil (disobey God). Adam and Eve were not evil before the fall, but they had the POTENTIAL for evil. With free will comes choice. When they stood in front of the tree they had a choice. It was their first and only in the garden - a choice between good and evil. God said no, Satan said yes and they chose evil. Superficially it seems that they had no way to decide morally. This is untrue. the snake said something like "Eating that crap will make you like God." When he tricked them it was not a conjuring of magic, but an appeal to the potential evil in them. The choice here should be not evaluated on whether they ate the apple, but WHY they ate the apple. Eating the fruit to be like God is motivation by GREED.Adam and Eve succumbed not because God made them defected robots, but because God gave them the opportunity for evil and they CHOSE evil when they could have resisted. Adam and Eve were just like us in the concern that they had control of their greed, they were not controlled by it.Sorry that was so long, but considering that entire libraries have been written on this through the ages...its not much.I assume that the same scenario happened in heaven when Lucifer became a fallen angel. We can take hope from the angels that stayed pure - perfection is not impossible for God's creations.------------------
-Phantom Mullet

The problem of pain/suffering/evil. If God is "able to do anything", why cant he create a world where there is no option for evil to exist. This raises the question of what is possible/impossible. C.S.Lewis argues that a world in which we have free will and yet not have be able to choose evil is self-contradictory and thus intrinsically impossible because it carries this impossibility within itself. Unlike most impossibles, which include an UNLESS. Eg, "But it is impossible for me to go to the top floor" UNLESS my friends carry me. Anything intrinsically impossible cannot be done by all agents, as omnipotence allows God to do anything intrinsically possible, but not anything intrinsically impossible.Now, how does this apply to the problem of pain? For a creature to be free, it must have freedom to choose, and this implies something to choose between. A creature without an environment has nothing to choose. The choice of choosing God or rejecting God. Rejecting God is sin.[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-20-2002]

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Consequence is a meaningless concept to one who doesn't understand the concepts of right/wrong or good/evil as well. But since you believe in the bible I can see why you would see no problem with contradicting concepts since the thing is nothing but. If you use this as an example of how to raise your children I would only have pity for them and maybe put a call into a child protection agency.

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You don't understand what the passage meant when Satan told them that they would not die, their eyes would be opened, be like God, and know the difference between good and evil. In this, Satan tells four lies. That they will live forever (the basis of reincarnation), that they will be like God (the basis of pantheism, that the universe is God and you are a part of God), their eyes would be open (the basis of esotericism) and know the difference between good and evil (the basis of relativism; that good and evil are relative). Adam and Eve weren't ignorant or stupid, as you seem to be making out. I can understand why you thought so, since Satan said that they would "know the difference between Good and Evil".

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You are not getting the context here. You are going by what things are like now. None of this was suppose to have existed BEFORE they ate of the apple. Haven't you read the myth, or at least have someone read it to you? Life was suppose to be "perfect" before the so-called "fall". Do you understand perfection?

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God said it was very good, not perfect. Where did you get the idea that he said it was perfect?[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-20-2002]

Originally posted by blitz77:You don't understand what the passage meant when Satan told them that they would not die, their eyes would be opened, be like God, and know the difference between good and evil. In this, Satan tells four lies. That they will live forever (the basis of reincarnation), that they will be like God (the basis of pantheism, that the universe is God and you are a part of God), their eyes would be open (the basis of esotericism) and know the difference between good and evil (the basis of relativism; that good and evil are relative). Adam and Eve weren't ignorant or stupid, as you seem to be making out. I can understand why you thought so, since Satan said that they would "know the difference between Good and Evil".Another example is if you tell your young child not to take candy from a stranger and yet does since they don't have any reason to believe you over them since they haven't learned what good and evil actually are. They had a lack of experience with this concept and truly had no knowledge of what any negative consequence would mean. They were children in this regard. Anyways the entire myth is self-contradictry as it is.BTW, it was not Satan, but a serpent. Satan, or Lucifer, didn't fall until much later. He defied god by falling in love with a woman.God said it was very good, not perfect. Where did you get the idea that he said it was perfect?Why from people like you. Adam and Eve were perfect so they could mate with each other and not worry about genetic problems and the like. God only creates perfection.It is quite clear that theists are incapable of seeing the obvious contradictions in theit belief systems. A prime example on here is Wordswordsman. Like him they will jump through hoops to try and make everything fit into what they want.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-20-2002]

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Originally posted by Phantom Mullet:

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Some people might bicker about what true evil really is, and whether the evil we see here on earth is true pure evil or just its effects, but the solution I have thought of (tho i doubt i am the first) is this: God made angels, heaven, earth, everything on earth. Therefore if Satan (a fallen angel!) can become a demon, where did the evil come from? God?

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Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Originally posted by Phantom Mullet:What this entire debate boils down to is free will and evil. My understanding of these is different from what I see here. In any case:

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1) God exists[/b]Prove this assertion.2) God is all goodRead the OT.3) God is all powerfulApparently not.4) Evil existsProve this as well.Some people might bicker about what true evil really is, and whether the evil we see here on earth is true pure evil or just its effects, but the solution I have thought of (tho i doubt i am the first) is this: God made angels, heaven, earth, everything on earth. Therefore if Satan (a fallen angel!) can become a demon, where did the evil come from? God?Evil is a human concept only and doesn't exist in nature.A) What is good?
Q) What God wants.Even when it is evil.Evil is the OPPOSITE of God's will. Evil on earth does not have the power of creation, only of desecration and the scorning of God's will for a perfect world. Evil seeks only to ruin and destroy.Evil only exist as a abstract.Since this is getting long...Adam and Eve had free will.They were created to worship and be friends with God. Without free will, worship is meaningless."Human life and destiny is always endangered when prophets of
whatever sort demand, 'Frage nicht, glaube!' Do not question.
Believe!"
-Jack ForstmanWith free will comes choice and with that the ability to do evil (disobey God). Adam and Eve were not evil before the fall, but they had the POTENTIAL for evil. With free will comes choice. When they stood in front of the tree they had a choice. It was their first and only in the garden - a choice between good and evil.In order to be able to make a choice they first must understand what the difference was and since they didn't they couldn't have been able to choice since they would have had to know beforehand.God said no, Satan said yes and they chose evil.No, it was not Satan, it was the serpent. Satan's fall, Lucifer, came much later. Superficially it seems that they had no way to decide morally. This is untrue. the snake said something like "Eating that crap will make you like God." When he tricked them it was not a conjuring of magic, but an appeal to the potential evil in them. The choice here should be not evaluated on whether they ate the apple, but WHY they ate the apple. Eating the fruit to be like God is motivation by GREED.Even if this were true it would mean that they were still not at fault since they were tricked and blameless.Adam and Eve succumbed not because God made them defected robots, but because God gave them the opportunity for evil and they CHOSE evil when they could have resisted. Adam and Eve were just like us in the concern that they had control of their greed, they were not controlled by it.In order to choose they first must have understood what good and evil were and if they already did then they had no need to eat the apple.I assume that the same scenario happened in heaven when Lucifer became a fallen angel. We can take hope from the angels that stayed pure - perfection is not impossible for God's creations.Lucifer was punished for the love of a woman. Your god was jealous of this and thus cast him out for daring to love anything other than god. Your god is quite insecure and petty, and if evil does exist as a real physical thing it would be your god.

[QUOTE][B]Here you are a theist and think that sacrificing one life for another is ok[/QUOTE][/B]I think that sacrificing one's life willingly is the highest expression of valor there is.But in war I think that it is sometimes necessary to kill. [QUOTE][B]and I'm an agnostic[/QUOTE][/B]You're no agnostic because you're as sure there is no God as I am sure there is a God. That makes you an atheist. Why you won't
'fess up to that is beyond me. Maybe "atheist" has negative connotations and you think "agnostic" is more PC. Or maybe it is trendier. Whatever you like, I guess.

[QUOTE][B]BTW, it was not Satan, but a serpent. Satan, or Lucifer, didn't fall until much later. He defied god by falling in love with a woman.[/QUOTE][/B]ROTFLMAO.Like suicidal lemmings, Mormon arranged marriages, Joseph's Smith miraculous resurrection to write a prophecy after the fact, and
the William Shakespeare edition of the KJV?Where are you getting this? I'm quite sure you don't have enough background in religion to have heard this anywhere else but a thirdhand source, such as....TV?

Originally posted by gene90:I think that sacrificing one's life willingly is the highest expression of valor there is.That's also the belief of the 19 terrorists on 9/11 as well. I rather live. Besides, I had said to sacrifice another's life, not you own.But in war I think that it is sometimes necessary to kill.Only as a last resort of self-defence that is why offenesive wars are immoral. War is a failure, there is no honor, nor glory in having to fight one even if it is sometimes a neccessary evil.You're no agnostic because you're as sure there is no God as I am sure there is a God. That makes you an atheist. Why you won't
'fess up to that is beyond me.In regards to a creator of all I am an agnostic. It is quite clear that the Christian god is a made up being since most Christians do create their god in their own image. You are no different.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

Originally posted by gene90:ROTFLMAO.

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Like suicidal lemmings, Mormon arranged marriages, Joseph's Smith miraculous resurrection to write a prophecy after the fact, and
the William Shakespeare edition of the KJV?All nothing in comparison to your delusion of a so-called "spirit witness".Where are you getting this? I'm quite sure you don't have enough background in religion to have heard this anywhere else but a thirdhand source, such as....TV? It was what we were taught in Church and Sunday School that Lucifer rebelled against god because god wouldn't let him love a woman he met while on Earth.Maybe the Mormons have a different version? Or else you're just being contrary. If I said it was day you'd just say that it was night.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-20-2002]

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Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

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"I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)Which translation is yours from?

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It was what we were taught in Church and Sunday School that Lucifer rebelled against god because god wouldn't let him love a woman he met while on Earth.

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Where'd you get that idea? It was because Lucifer wanted to place himself higher than God that God kicked him out. It was because of his pride.

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12How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. 15But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit (Isa. 14:12—15, NIV).

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[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-21-2002]

I don't think it requires a knowledge of
good and evil to guess that something bad has been
threatened if you do something.

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Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think it requires a knowledge of
good and evil to guess that something bad has been
threatened if you do something.

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Yes, it does. They wouldn't have known what bad was without knowing what evil was beforehand as well.