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Author Topic:   Source of biblical flood water?
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 263 (202778)
04-26-2005 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by arachnophilia
04-26-2005 12:05 AM


restitution
quote:
, there's no son of david on the throne in israel right now
Jesus, and as you can see you need to readjust your idea of Israel, and the 'holy city', and Jerusalem, because somethimes He is talking about believers (Christians), the & golden city (for bothe the latter ones)
quote:
indeed, the word in the hebrew means "shake" and not "destroy"
Well, it will be shaken, but never destroyed, sounds good to me.
quote:
"Ec 1:4 -One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. "
actually, this one DISPROVES your point (not to mention ptolemy's).
No, because on eternal earth here, many generations, as you might notice do pass away. However, on the same earth, generations also coming, will not pass away, like the earth.
quote:
Nothing can be added to it
And nothing can be taken from it --
and God has brought to pass that men revere him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now. compare.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
"nothing added and nothing taken away" is the jewish philosophy regarding the sanctity of scripture. so what's he talking about?
"I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that man should fear before him
(Ecclesiastes 3:14). In this verse, Solomon comes very near to the ultimate truth with which he finally closed out the book (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). Note particularly the fact that the fear of God on man's part is the basic element of true wisdom and that God binds it as a pre-condition of all the blessings he may give to men. "
Ecclesiastes 3 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
There's a commentary on it. To me it kind of sounds like, 'man can't tinker much with what God does or is going to do. So be careful, O little man.'
quote:
"Da 12:3 -And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
not the sun, not the moon, and not the earth. stars, and might i add NEW stars. not the old ones.
What's the brightest thing (or 'star') in all the sky? The sun. But it shows as well the stsrs, etc are also eternal, even though we it all will lookk different when the curtain is drawn for the new heavens. Why? Well, for example, the color of the stsrs we see is depended I think on a few things. Take away the decay, and have the spirit light get here instantly, and I think even the color will change?
quote:
it is merely a renewal or burning of the surface
book, chapter, verse? can you present anything on this? you have two possibly valid mentions above, and one that disproves your other argument.
rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
"2Pe 3:12 - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "
2 pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. "
Re 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. .."
"Ac 3:21 -Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. "
So, once we have the key to understanding what will go on here, many verses simply take on a new light, and are opened to our understanding as to what they really meant all along.
quote:
When it is merged, we'll see the whole picture, and all we were missing.
still, i regards to this merged bit, book, chapter, verse?
"1Th 4:17 -Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "
If we look around the bible, we see that when we are ressurected, what happens is our dead (unless it's still live when He comes, then it'll be our live ones) bodies are raised, joined with our spirits, and we then have our immortal bodies. (doesn't matter if the bodies were destroyed, drowned, etc. (Some atom, or hair, or whatever was saved somewhere)
Why? I don't know, apparently our spirits in heave are somehow still incomplete till they merge with the body. So here we do have a merge. I presented a case for the phsical world and universe being in a similar boat, in that they are purged, or changed, and the spiritual joins it, revealing the everlasting complete version. Like Heaven coming down to earth, home of God Himself, to live here on our cleaned up, renewed earth, in it's forever state.
So you can take it or leave it, that's basically the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 12:05 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 9:44 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 263 (202785)
04-26-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by arachnophilia
04-26-2005 12:33 AM


morning stars
quote:
i've read it. THOROUGHLY. i checked every contradiction. roughly half of them are flat out bullshit, and stem from pure misunderstanind.
Well, then, I give you good marks. You get about 50% on the test here. Now I think that either that book may have been in a bigger one of another name, changed names, or something, cause I am pretty sure O looked at the title when they showed me, but you could be right.
Now for my humble opinion on the matter. I fully believe that if we did not misunderstand the Almighty, we would see all of these were misunderstandings! As I say, we need supernatural help to understand a lot of the book, to really get it. Our frame of reference is too limited. So even bible understsnding is in a box of the physical or mental, until the spiritual element is entered, like punching the right key code, and bam-it wakes up, and comes alive! Otherwise it is dead words. The Spirit quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing!
quote:
and i suppose my hebrew prophesor, who indeed believes in the text himself, is one such occult type trying to make the bible or god sound silly.
Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here, and say he is just not scoring too high on the test!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
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1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
feel free to check the stories
My take, at first boo is that God simply used the devil to punish Israel. In other words, the devil was His agent, because of some sin, no doubt, to go down, and deceive, or inspire in a way that would end up as a punishment? Note however, that 'who the Lord loves, He chasteneth, and scoureth every son that He receives'. So, it's not like the devil was allowed for long to spank them, only till they got the point.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since you might have missed this one, "lucifer" is latin for the planet venus the half of the year it comprises it's role as the morning star
Despite a planet being of the same name in latin, which may have some good reason, we should remember that the devil is not actually a planet!
"Job 38:7 -When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? "
That verse brings a touch of sadness to me. It talks to me of a time, perhaps before the angels rebelled? -where Jesus, the wonderful great and bright morning star, seems here to have sang together with some other powerful bright morning star. (the devil before the rebellion?)
So, in now, it would stand to reason, if this is right, that only Jesus is left as the bright morning star.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 12:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 10:09 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 263 (202787)
04-26-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by arachnophilia
04-26-2005 12:33 AM


Just a note, I'll be away for awhile, maybe I'll check back, and see how the thread ended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 12:33 AM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 259 of 263 (202832)
04-26-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by simple
04-26-2005 7:00 PM


Re: restitution
Jesus, and as you can see you need to readjust your idea of Israel, and the 'holy city', and Jerusalem, because somethimes He is talking about believers (Christians), the & golden city (for bothe the latter ones)
i can go to jerusalem. they have a prime minister, not a king, and he is not descended from david in any way. i think the philosophy that we need to "readjust our ideas" of what certain things are is CHEATING. we can "readjust" our ideas of anything to anything.
what if when when god said "thou shalt make no graven images" he -really- meant "no message boards." we'd all be screwed! you can't just change stuff, because you feel like it.
Well, it will be shaken, but never destroyed, sounds good to me.
oh. my. god.
no, it says it will never be shaken.
No, because on eternal earth here, many generations, as you might notice do pass away. However, on the same earth, generations also coming, will not pass away, like the earth.
it says the planet will never change. that's what "abides" means. it stays the same. so no merged state. period. you have to lose on one of these accounts. sorry.
There's a commentary on it. To me it kind of sounds like, 'man can't tinker much with what God does or is going to do. So be careful, O little man.'
yes. meaning the word of god.
What's the brightest thing (or 'star') in all the sky? The sun.
did the hebrews know that the little points of light in the sky where the same thing as the really, really big one? i suspect that they did not. and even still, these are NEW eternal stars. not the old ones.
even though we it all will lookk different when the curtain is drawn for the new heavens. Why? Well, for example, the color of the stsrs we see is depended I think on a few things.
book, chapter, verse?
Take away the decay, and have the spirit light get here instantly, and I think even the color will change?
depends. does decay include molecular collapse and fission? if so, a little more than color will change -- them existing will change.
rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
gog and magog, not the earth.
"2Pe 3:12 - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "
that's especially contradictory to your point of them lasting forever.
Re 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. .."
recreation, not restoration. "all thing" would include the earth.
"1Th 4:17 -Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "
i don't see anything about a merged spiritual-physical state on earth. it seems to speaking about "the rapture." it just says, basically they'll get taken up to heaven. same as enoch and elijah.
If we look around the bible, we see that when we are ressurected, what happens is our dead (unless it's still live when He comes, then it'll be our live ones) bodies are raised, joined with our spirits, and we then have our immortal bodies. (doesn't matter if the bodies were destroyed, drowned, etc. (Some atom, or hair, or whatever was saved somewhere)
i don't see that claim much of anywhere. there is the occasional talk of the physical body being resurrected. and maybe even the spirit joined with it. but where is our spirit now if not in our bodies?
quote:
I don't know, apparently our spirits in heave are somehow still incomplete till they merge with the body.
makes no sense. i'm sorry. if our spirits are in heaven NOW, why bother with this salvation stuff? kinda pointless. our bodies are going in the ground anyways.
Like Heaven coming down to earth, home of God Himself
possibly. but it's not any kind of different reality. it's just a relocation.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by simple, posted 04-26-2005 7:00 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by simple, posted 04-27-2005 2:18 AM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 260 of 263 (202844)
04-26-2005 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by simple
04-26-2005 7:27 PM


Re: morning stars
Well, then, I give you good marks. You get about 50% on the test here
no, rather, their list gets about 50%. there are some contradictions still. who's jesus's earthly grandfather, joseph's dad?
I fully believe that if we did not misunderstand the Almighty, we would see all of these were misunderstandings!
i understand a good deal about the almighty, as much as he has allowed me at this point and as much as i am ready for. and what i understand is that he is often misunderstood. case in point.
As I say, we need supernatural help to understand a lot of the book, to really get it.
kind of an unconvincing way to proselytize, don't you think?
Our frame of reference is too limited. So even bible understsnding is in a box of the physical or mental,
i find you literalists to be an "in the box" kind of crowd.
until the spiritual element is entered, like punching the right key code, and bam-it wakes up, and comes alive! Otherwise it is dead words. The Spirit quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing!
does reason profit nothing? does logic and understanding profit nothing?
(oh, and god still say you're wrong. and i think he would know!)
My take, at first boo is that God simply used the devil to punish Israel. In other words, the devil was His agent, because of some sin, no doubt, to go down, and deceive, or inspire in a way that would end up as a punishment? Note however, that 'who the Lord loves, He chasteneth, and scoureth every son that He receives'. So, it's not like the devil was allowed for long to spank them, only till they got the point.
well, god spanked them for it, but yes! good job. satan opperates under the authority of the lord, according to the will of the lord.
good solution, because otherwise it'd be a really nasty problem, wouldn't? mistaking "yahweh" for "hasatan."
Despite a planet being of the same name in latin, which may have some good reason, we should remember that the devil is not actually a planet!
nope, actually, they are using the same terms. see, "the morning star" although referred to in different languages, is still the star (planet) on the horizon the heralds the dawn 6 months out of the year. the name "lucifer" was translated into latin because the hebrew heavily implied that's what they meant. the word heylel ("lucifer") means "bearer of light" and "lucifer" means "bearer of light." the isaiah verse also refers to him as "son of the dawn" further proof they're referring to the same thing in the sky symbolically.
we could, i suppose chalk it up to a translation issue, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on, and there's a MUCH better explanation for it. (it'll also explain that job verse you posted much better too, i promise.)
That verse brings a touch of sadness to me. It talks to me of a time, perhaps before the angels rebelled?
well, we've already demonstrated above that satan is in the service and control of the lord at the point in sam/chron. so no rebellion yet (not until at least jesus, probably revelation)
So, in now, it would stand to reason, if this is right, that only Jesus is left as the bright morning star.
hmm. nice. close, hit some of the symbolic meaning, but not quite there. still missing to very important aspects of this story, so you don't quite appreciate the beauty of this yet. if you don't reply (vacation or whatever) i'll explain in a day or two.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by simple, posted 04-26-2005 7:27 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by simple, posted 04-27-2005 2:35 AM arachnophilia has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 263 (202899)
04-27-2005 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by arachnophilia
04-26-2005 9:44 PM


when it all comes together
quote:
i think the philosophy that we need to "readjust our ideas" of what certain things are is CHEATING. we can "readjust" our ideas of anything to anything.
He uses some things interchangably, so nothing is changed, only understood. When we read it in the light of His people Israel someyimes meaning christians, and Jerusalem sometimes actually refering to the Holy one. Etc. We are the true Jews, Paul indicates, so why not?
quote:
oh. my. god.
no, it says it will never be shaken.
His word, no. The earth, will be.
quote:
it says the planet will never change. that's what "abides" means. it stays the same. so no merged state.
No, abides can happen with some changes. Like if we abide, we can still learn. Our lawn can still abide, if we give it a burn to help it. The earth also will abide just great after the surface fire.
quote:
did the hebrews know that the little points of light in the sky where the same thing as the really, really big one?
I was thinking they knew which the brightest one was.
quote:
even though we it all will look different when the curtain is drawn for the new heavens. Why? Well, for example, the color of the stsrs we see is depended I think on a few things.
book, chapter, verse?
Re 6:14 -" And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
A scroll, like one of those curtains you pull the string, and it rolls up.
quote:
depends. does decay include molecular collapse and fission? if so, a little more than color will change -- them existing will change.
How much fission or whatnot do you think will happen in this last generation? No time for too much of anything
quote:
fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
gog and magog, not the earth.
From the rest of the bible we see it is more than a couple kings who get burned, but every mountain made low, and no more sea as well.
quote:
"2Pe 3:12 - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "
that's especially contradictory to your point of them lasting forever.
Not in the least. The elements on earths surface, and atmosphere need a cleansing. As they are dissolved, or rolled up like a scroll, we'll see our new ones at the merge.
quote:
Re 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. .."
recreation, not restoration. "all thing" would include the earth.
Yes, the earth that was burned on the surface, will be made new as well. Not only that, with the spiritual added, it will be everlasting.
quote:
it seems to speaking about "the rapture." it just says, basically they'll get taken up to heaven
No. Their bodies are very dead here! The dead in Christ shall rise first. Enoch was alive. If we go to be with Jesus, like the guy helping John in Revelations 'I am thy fellowservant'. Then why would our dead bodies on earth need to be raised, if we were fine with just a spirit body in heaven? It takes both to be complete.
quote:
. there is the occasional talk of the physical body being resurrected. and maybe even the spirit joined with it. but where is our spirit now if not in our bodies
Us who are alive have our spirit right here, of course. When we die, we go to be with the Lord.
quote:
makes no sense. i'm sorry. if our spirits are in heaven NOW
Only when you die, if you are a believer, would they go to heaven. But as the rapture indicates, we are coming back for our raised physical bodies, to join our spirits, for our everlasting real merged bodies.
quote:
Like Heaven coming down to earth, home of God Himself
possibly. but it's not any kind of different reality. it's just a relocation
City of spirits, headquarters of the Great Spirit, on a new earth, in a time we see the new heavens as well, when it all comes together!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 9:44 PM arachnophilia has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 263 (202902)
04-27-2005 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by arachnophilia
04-26-2005 10:09 PM


Re: morning stars
quote:
who's jesus's earthly grandfather, joseph's dad?
A Spirit came in to Mary, and she got pregnant with God's Own Son. Joseph was not the father, why not have 2 geneologies! After all a virgin birth was unusual, actually, unique!
Matthew 1 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
"the simplest, reconciliation of these two lists is to view Matthew's account as the ancestry of Joseph, and Luke's genealogy as the record of Mary's ancestry. Two separate genealogies of Jesus Christ are absolutely necessary in the establishment of the Christ, first as the blood descendant of David, and secondly, as the legal heir to the royal throne of the Hebrews. Matthew shows Christ as the legal heir to the throne by tracing his ancestry down through the royal line of the kings of Israel.
Luke's genealogy is utterly different, because it is not concerned with title to a throne but with the blood ancestry of Jesus. The only real difficulty in this view is the statement in Luke 3:23 that Joseph is the "son of Heli." R. A. Torrey stated that "Joseph's name is introduced into this place instead of Mary's, he being Mary's husband. Heli was Joseph's father-in-law; and so Joseph was called "the son of Heli." While Joseph was son-in-law of Heli, he was, according to the flesh, actually the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16). F11 This type of double entry was not confusing to the Jews, for a woman's name did not usually stand in the tables of genealogy"
quote:
As I say, we need supernatural help to understand a lot of the book, to really get it.
kind of an unconvincing way to proselytize, don't you think?
Well, is that all it is a document trying to sell people? He just tells it like it is, and our job is to believe it, and He has help available for those who seek it. Not too many get saved by the bible, I would guess, though many doubtless have. Thats why He needs people to do it.
quote:
does reason profit nothing? does logic and understanding profit nothing?
Leaning to man's wisdom wouldn't help. Our own logic and understanding just don't cut it either, we need His help!
quote:
although referred to in different languages, is still the star (planet) on the horizon the heralds the dawn 6 months out of the year.
What heralded the dawn pre split, or will herald it after the merge?
quote:
hmm. nice. close, hit some of the symbolic meaning, but not quite there. still missing to very important aspects of this story, so you don't quite appreciate the beauty of this yet. if you don't reply (vacation or whatever) i'll explain in a day or two.
OK, you get the last word, I will be unreachable for a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by arachnophilia, posted 04-26-2005 10:09 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 263 of 263 (202905)
04-27-2005 2:55 AM


Terminally off-topic - Closing down
I have skimmed the most recent ~30 messages of this topic, and I noticed nothing having to do with the Blblical flood (see those words in the topic title?).
If the current theme of discussion is to continue, someone needs to propose a new topic specific to that theme. Please include a link back to an appropriate point in this topic.
Closing down.
Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-27-2005 02:56 AM

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