Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

See my Message 225 to ramoss. When a literal virgin is meant, parthenos is the word that is used. It also has other uses depending on context, but again, it is the word for a literal virgin when that is what is meant.{EDIT: My list was intended to show that it was NOT used in five out of seven of the Hebrew verses for the word "almah," and its having been used for the two shows its intention to refer to a literal virgin. In the case of Rebecca it follows a verse where her literal virginity is emphasized.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2005 02:26 PM

You didn't respond then about 'Parthenos'Why was it used to denote Dinah AFTER she was raped in Genesis ??

For the same reason it was used in all the other examples you gave that I answered. It doesn't always mean virgin as I've said many times. But when literal virgin is meant it is the word that is used.

yes, i'm well aware of that. and that's the point i was combatting. "virgin" is not a correct rendering of almah. it was substituted i nthe case of rebecca because it was ok there -- the text indicates she's a virgin. but that's now what it actually says in hebrew for that specific word.nor does the context for isaiah 7:14 indicate any reason whatsoever for the word "virgin" to be used, except christian tradition. and this tradition is misplaced: the prophesy does not refer to jesus in any way.neither the 1917 jps nor the new one use "virgin" here. nor does the rsv. almah simply does not mean the woman has to be virgin, ever. not even in cases of "divine misinterpretation."

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אָרַח

Again you are arguing with Jewish translators from 200 years before Christ who knew what they were doing. And you are trusting post-Christian Jewish sources who have a vested interest in denying that "virgin" applies in Isaiah 7:14, and modern translations of the Bible are untrustworthy.

Actually, I am not.I am arguing that parthenos from the greek translations from 400 years before this Christ guy did not exclusively mean virgin.I held up the example of Dinah, and it being used for her after she was raped. Why did they refer to a woman who was raped if 'parthenos' means sexually pure? That is not the modern translation either.You are refusing to answer the point.You are also refusing to answer the point that other greek authors from outside the bible used 'parthenos' to refer to women who were not virgins.Why are you avoiding the issue?This message has been edited by ramoss, 04-29-2005 03:20 PM

You can't have it both ways.You cannot, on the one hand, have parthenos be "ambiguous" and "used in other contexts"
AND, on the other hand, have it "strictly" meaning "literal virgin."Every language has an unequivocal expression indicating what you call "a literal virgin." But 'Almah,' 'Parthenos,' and 'Virgin' are not those terms. They are not unequivocal. I believe you have already agreed to that.Any discussion of the sexual status of the mother of God should be unequivocal. It should be clearer, more precise, and more to the point than that of anyone else, including: Rachel, or Dinah, or Rahab.BUT it is NOT.It is so obscure, so ambivalent, so dichotomous as to inspire two millenia of fierce debate leading to the rape, pillage and plunder of ones opponents.Good Grief!Where is the referee already?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

That's what many Jewish scholars said of the Septuagint when it was a modern translation.That, and they saw how it was misleading the masses.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

db

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

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The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15

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Hebrews 9:15 is definitely talking about Christ. Is that why God is a male? So much for the literal interpretation of Genesis. Sorry, this is from the first page or so, but all the rest of the 16 pages was just too much gory detail for me.Interesting thread though....

kind of fuzzy line, isn't it? it can mean virgin when you want it to, but not when you don't want it to. what make isaiah have to mean virgin then?here's all the parthenos in the septuagint, btw. (check if you like)

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Gen 24:14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.

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kai estai h parqenos h an egw eipw epiklinon thn udrian sou ina piw kai eiph moi pie kai tas kamhlous sou potiw ews an pauswntai pinousai tauthn htoimasas tw paidi sou isaak kai en toutw gnwsomai oti epoihsas eleos tw kuriw mou abraam

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hebrew: na'arah

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Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

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h de parqenos hn kalh th oyei sfodra parqenos hn anhr ouk egnw authn katabasa de epi thn phghn eplhsen thn udrian kai anebh

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hebrew: na'arah, betulah

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Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

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idou egw efesthka epi ths phghs tou udatos kai ai qugateres twn anqrwpwn ths polews exeleusontai udreusasqai udwr kai estai h parqenos h an egw eipw potison me mikron udwr ek ths udrias sou

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hebrew: almah

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Gen 24:55 And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go.

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eipan de oi adelfoi auths kai h mhthr meinatw h parqenos meq hmwn hmeras wsei deka kai meta tauta apeleusetai

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hebrew: na'arah

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Deu 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

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ean de genhtai pais parqenos memnhsteumenh andri kai eurwn authn anqrwpos en polei koimhqh met auths

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hebrew: betulah

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Jdg 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

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idou h qugathr mou h parqenos kai h pallakh autou exaxw dh autas kai tapeinwsate autas kai poihsate autais to agaqon en ofqalmois umwn kai tw andri toutw mh poihshte to rhma ths afrosunhs tauths

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hebrew: betulah (should be virgin, btw)

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2Sa 13:2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her.

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kai eqlibeto amnwn wste arrwstein dia qhmar thn adelfhn autou oti parqenos hn auth kai uperogkon en ofqalmois amnwn tou poihsai ti auth

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hebrew: betulah

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2Ki 19:21 This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

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outos o logos on elalhsen kurios ep auton exoudenhsen se kai emukthrisen se parqenos qugathr siwn epi soi kefalhn auths ekinhsen qugathr ierousalhm

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hebrew: betulah

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Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

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dia touto dwsei kurios autos umin shmeion idou h parqenos en gastri exei kai texetai uion kai kaleseis to onoma autou emmanouhl

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hebrew: almah

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Isa 37:22 This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

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outos o logos on elalhsen peri autou o qeos efaulisen se kai emukthrisen se parqenos qugathr siwn epi soi kefalhn ekinhsen qugathr ierousalhm

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hebrew: betulah

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Isa 47:1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.

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katabhqi kaqison epi thn ghn parqenos qugathr babulwnos eiselqe eis to skotos qugathr caldaiwn oti ouketi prosteqhsh klhqhnai apalh kai trufera

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hebrew: betulah

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Jer 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

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mh epilhsetai numfh ton kosmon auths kai parqenos thn sthqodesmida auths o de laos mou epelaqeto mou hmeras wn ouk estin ariqmos

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hebrew: betulah (also should be virgin)

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Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

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dia touto tade legei kurios erwthsate dh en eqnesin tis hkousen toiauta frikta a epoihsen sfodra parqenos israhl

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hebrew: betulah

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Jer 31:4 (38:4) Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

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eti oikodomhsw se kai oikodomhqhsh parqenos israhl eti lhmyh tumpanon sou kai exeleush meta sunagwghs paizontwn

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hebrew: betulah

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Jer 31:21 (38:21) Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.

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sthson seauthn siwn poihson timwrian dos kardian sou eis tous wmous odon hn eporeuqhs apostrafhti parqenos israhl apostrafhti eis tas poleis sou penqousa

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hebrew: betulah

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Lam 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

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ti marturhsw soi h ti omoiwsw soi qugater ierousalhm tis swsei se kai parakalesei se parqenos qugater siwn oti emegalunqh pothrion suntribhs sou tis iasetai se

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hebrew: betulah

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Amo 5:2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

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epesen ouketi mh prosqh tou anasthnai parqenos tou israhl esfalen epi ths ghs auths ouk estin o anasthswn authn

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hebrew: betulah

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now, let's look at how the septuagint renders almah and na'arah:

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Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

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idou egw efesthka epi ths phghs tou udatos kai ai qugateres twn anqrwpwn ths polews exeleusontai udreusasqai udwr kai estai h parqenos h an egw eipw potison me mikron udwr ek ths udrias sou

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Exd 2:8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

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h de eipen auth h qugathr faraw poreuou elqousa de h neanis ekalesen thn mhtera tou paidiou

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Psa 68:25 The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the damsels playing with timbrels.

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ep autous thn orghn sou kai o qumos ths orghs sou katalaboi autous

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Pro 30:19 The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.

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icnh aetou petomenou kai odous ofews epi petras kai tribous nhos pontoporoushs kai odous andros en neothti

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Sgs 1:3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name [is as] ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

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kai osmh murwn sou uper panta ta arwmata muron ekkenwqen onoma sou dia touto neanides hgaphsan se

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Sgs 6:8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

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exhkonta eisin basilissai kai ogdohkonta pallakai kai neanides wn ouk estin ariqmos

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Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

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dia touto dwsei kurios autos umin shmeion idou h parqenos en gastri exei kai texetai uion kai kaleseis to onoma autou emmanouhl

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and come to think of it, i won't post all the na'arah's because there's A LOT. none of which are translated "virgin" and only three of which are translated parthenos. notice the exceptionally small crossover of these lists? parthenos is NORMALLY used to denote a virgin. however, almah and na'arah are occasionally rendered parthenos for no particular reason, when there's nothing in the verse to signify virginity. this probably is because they got tired of always using the same word for a young woman.the crossover of the three is very small. in this case, it seems to indicate possibly an error in translation, or using the word in a different sense. but there is no substantial case to claim that parthenos should be rendered virgin in the modern sense, let alone that almah should be rendered parthenos.almah simply means "young woman." nothing more. fixed an opening font tag - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 04-29-2005 04:26 PM

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אָרַח

ramoss, your other points are probably valid, but the septuagint does not have "parthenos" here. i post every instance of it above. (and searching the septuagint is a real pain in the ass, mind you)

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אָרַח

yes, who didn't use parthenos to mean "virgin." lets try this backwards.almah doesn't mean virgin.
they used parthenos for almah.
therefor, parthenos can't mean virgin either.they did use parthenos for virgins, yes. and when it gets thrown into latin, parthenos becomes virgo, sure. but in HEBREW almah does not mean virgin. it means young woman.so either they didn't use parthenos to mean virgin, or they made a mistake. that happens sometimes. or, maybe, and here's a remote possibility that i will acknowlegde, the original had betulah.sometimes, we get some changes between the septuagint and masoretic. it happens. however, since parthenos is used twice in a row in a way where one should elaborate on the other, i doubt this is the case. yeah, that's right. they changed their whole usage of a word just to piss off the christians. no, see, even if it DID say "virgin" it still wouldn't be about christ, since this would have happened during the reign of ahaz. the prophesy is about ahaz's war. it's fulfilled a few chapters later.

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אָרַח

Remembering that the actual word "virgin" did not exist in the OT.So in Isaiah 7:14 we have the "almah" which means a young woman of marriageable age or newly married."Almah" was then translated to the Greek "parthenos" which means a marriageable maiden or a woman who has not had sex with a man.In the Latin "almah" or "parthenos" was then translated with the word "virgo" which means an unmarried woman.Now when we look in Webster's at the word "virgin" we have: Just because the word COULD mean a woman who has not had sex, doesn't mean that was the way it was used.So now you need to show that the context of the usage means a woman who has not had sex, because quite obviously the word used doesn't narrow it down as you claim.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Hebrews 9:15 is definitely talking about Christ.

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I agree, but the Book of Hebrews was not around during the ministry of Jesus and is not part of the documents mentioned in the OP.Isaiah 59:16 was speaking of God himself as the redeemer.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France