Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Help with Creationist Questions (Novel Body Plans, Information, Hox Genes)
outblaze
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 2 (203753)
04-29-2005 5:20 PM


Hi all,
I’m in a discussion with a creationist and he brings up some questions that I’m having trouble formulating a response to and would appreciate any insights you more knowledgeable folks here may have.
1) He claims that novel, or new information is needed for macroevolution to take place. By macroevolution, he provided the cambrian explosion as an example stating that during the cambrian explosion, vast amounts of NOVEL, new, or unique genetic material would have been needed to produce the new species that came about. Then he continues by saying that unfortunately for us evolutionists, this is not all that is required for new species to arise. He says there has to be a way of arranging the gene products (proteins) into higher levels of organization. In addition to this, there have to be other systems within and outside of that product which can service the new arrangements. (These last two sentences sound bogus to me but unsure)
Note: He provides a definition for information from Websters: knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) : INTELLIGENCE, NEWS (3) : FACTS, DATA b : the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects
He sums it up and ask: "Tell me how evolution can create the information (building material) and form (blueprints) that was necessary to bring about the new structures of life that we see appearing during the Cambrian period."
2) Sources of new genetic information (gene duplication, relocation and point mutation) were provided to him. He responds by saying this new genetic information may sound logical for the Cambrian explosion and it certainly is in line with what’s claimed on Panda's Thumb and other pro-Darwinian/anti-Creationism websites, but it doesn't seem to fit with many published scientific sources. He quotes the below authors saying they appear to believe that there is still not a complete explanation for the volume of "novel" information coming from the cambrian period.
**A very well known developmental biologist/geneticist Wallace Arthur wrote in 1997 that "current evolutionary theory, based on natural selection and adaptation in present-day lineages is, at the very least, incomplete".
**James Valentine, in his 2004 book On the Origin of Phyla takes on the question of the origin of body plans during the cambrian period. He concludes "that no current hypothesis provides a satisfactory account of the origin of the Cambrian phyla and that the problem of novel body plans remains unsolved'the underlying causes remain uncertain."
**Kevin Padian - a UC Berkeley professor who said in his book "The Whole real Guts of Evolution", Paleobiology, vol. 15, Winter, 1989, p. 77. (the link is from a Harun Yahya website) "How do major evolutionary changes get started? Does anyone still believe that populations sit around for tens of thousands of years, waiting for favorable mutations to occur (and just how does that happen, by the way?), then anxiously guard them until enough accumulate for selection to push the population toward new and useful change? There you have the mathematical arguments of neodarwinism that Waddington and others rightly characterized as vacuous."
3) He addresses Hox genes and asks how they might provide material for novel body plans.
4) Finally he states that while evolution can account for natural selection and specific adaptation, can evolution account for biological forms or living systems such as the eye? What about the ORIGIN of information necessary to build NOVEL animal forms? Is that information falsifiable?
Thanks and appreciate any assistance.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-08-2005 2:08 AM outblaze has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 2 (206041)
05-08-2005 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by outblaze
04-29-2005 5:20 PM


Sorry, too many themes in this topic
A well written message, but unfortunately you have a lot of different topics in there.
I suggest you search the Biological Forum topics for the more specific relevant topics.
You may wish to try the forum's Search Utility.
If you have Microsoft Access and know how to use its sorting and/or filtering abilities, you may wish to consult the database available via here. Warning: As that database is updated, new file names are given to it.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by outblaze, posted 04-29-2005 5:20 PM outblaze has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024