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Author Topic:   How can evolution be true if there are no between-stage fossils? (+ 1 more question)
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 78 (20380)
10-21-2002 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by blitz77
10-21-2002 6:07 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by blitz77:
[B]
quote:
It was what we were taught in Church and Sunday School that Lucifer rebelled against god because god wouldn't let him love a woman he met while on Earth.
Where'd you get that idea? It was because Lucifer wanted to place himself higher than God that God kicked him out. It was because of his pride.
[quote]12How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. 15But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit (Isa. 14:12—15, NIV).[/b][/quote]
That wasn't the bible I was taught out of. And besides this passage only talks about him being cast out not why, or how, he rebelled.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 6:07 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 7:26 AM nos482 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 78 (20381)
10-21-2002 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by blitz77
10-21-2002 6:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
"I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)
Which translation is yours from?

Does it really matter if it is suppose to be the word of god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 6:02 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 7:27 AM nos482 has replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 78 (20383)
10-21-2002 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by nos482
10-21-2002 7:20 AM


Don't dodge the point. Back to your argument
quote:
It was what we were taught in Church and Sunday School that Lucifer rebelled against god because god wouldn't let him love a woman he met while on Earth.
saying that Lucifer rebelled because of love for a woman. Cite.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 7:20 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 7:59 AM blitz77 has replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 78 (20384)
10-21-2002 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by nos482
10-21-2002 7:23 AM


quote:
Does it really matter if it is suppose to be the word of god?
We believe that the Bible in its original form is inspired by God. However, humans make errors (as we always do) and in the translation process may misinterpret something.
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 7:23 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 8:01 AM blitz77 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 78 (20386)
10-21-2002 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by blitz77
10-21-2002 7:26 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
Don't dodge the point. Back to your argument
quote:
It was what we were taught in Church and Sunday School that Lucifer rebelled against god because god wouldn't let him love a woman he met while on Earth.
saying that Lucifer rebelled because of love for a woman. Cite.

Revelation 12: 1—12
This may be the right passages, all I know is what I was told during mass and at Sunday School. That Lucifer rebelled because he had fallen in love with a woman while he was on Earth got her pregnant and when god found out god took the woman up to heaven and Lucifer try to overthrow god for treating him like this. Some call this pride for daring to oppose god's will.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 7:26 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 9:18 AM nos482 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 78 (20387)
10-21-2002 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by blitz77
10-21-2002 7:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
quote:
Does it really matter if it is suppose to be the word of god?
We believe that the Bible in its original form is inspired by God. However, humans make errors (as we always do) and in the translation process may misinterpret something.

If it is truly the inspired word of your god than translation is irrelevant. An al-knowing god would take that into account.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 7:27 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 8:50 AM nos482 has replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 78 (20391)
10-21-2002 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nos482
10-21-2002 8:01 AM


It just demonstrates the limited nature of language. You ever learnt another language nos482? You should realize that translating a word from one language to another isn't perfect. In the translation, some of the meaning is lost.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 8:01 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 9:41 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 78 (20392)
10-21-2002 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by nos482
10-21-2002 7:59 AM


Please read it before you talk about it.
quote:
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.--Rev ch12:4
and
quote:
When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman as given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.Then from his mouth the serpent spwed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with a torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon ad spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. -- Rev 12:13-17
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 7:59 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 9:54 AM blitz77 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 78 (20396)
10-21-2002 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by blitz77
10-21-2002 8:50 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
It just demonstrates the limited nature of language. You ever learnt another language nos482? You should realize that translating a word from one language to another isn't perfect. In the translation, some of the meaning is lost.
Irrelevant, as I had said an all-knowing god would take that into account. Afterall it was god who was suppose to have created all of these languages in the first place as a punishment for building the tower of Babel.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 8:50 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 78 (20398)
10-21-2002 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by blitz77
10-21-2002 9:18 AM


Originally posted by blitz77:
Please read it before you talk about it.
Like I had said I wasn't sure if this was the right passages. But this still doesn't change the fact that I was taught what I had said during my youth. All I knew was that it was an interesting story. I've even asked my family and they remember the same thing being told to them as well.
Though, this is probably another case of something being taught as being from the bible which actually isn't in the the bible as stated. Since most Christians don't actually read it in any real depth, and aren't bible scholars, they will go mostly by what their clergy tells them. If you can't trust what your clergy says who can you trust?
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by blitz77, posted 10-21-2002 9:18 AM blitz77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by nator, posted 10-21-2002 9:24 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 59 by blitz77, posted 10-23-2002 3:12 AM nos482 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 56 of 78 (20427)
10-21-2002 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by nos482
10-21-2002 9:54 AM


All I am going to say is that anyone who claims to understand the bad acid trip that is the Book of Revelations is talking out of their arse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 9:54 AM nos482 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-22-2002 10:47 AM nator has replied

  
arpaisley
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 78 (20491)
10-22-2002 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by izoakl
10-16-2002 9:40 PM


First of all, giraffes did not come from zebras and that is why there is no fossil in between. That is obvious so why would you use a nonexistant sample for evidence? Secondly, scientific research has shown that even minute mutations in DNA can create large macroscopic mutations. Therefore, large changes can happen between similar species. Also, conditions must be perfect for a skeleton to become a fossil. Some stages may have been lost forever or just not found yet. This still leaves a lot of questions that research hasn't been able to answer yet. However, pointing out the faults of evolution does nothing to prove that creation science is valid.
Your second question beautifully portrays the fault at the heart of creation science. You already have the goals, you are simply trying to find the means. You know what you answers are already, so you search for evidence that helps your arguement and ignore evidence that doesn't. On top of that, your evidence purely consists of the faults of evolution, many of which (like the one above), stem from an incomplete understanding of the topic. You WANT to believe that creation is true and you are desperate to make it look scientific so that you may compete with evolutionists on an educated level. However, creationism is not empirical and therefore can never be a science. Empirical science collects evidence first and draws conclusions after it has the evidence to support it. Creationism is a faith that comes from the writings of men. What people say happened is never taken as evidence in the scientific world, any experiment is retested many times by many people before it can be considered evidence. Therefore keep your beliefs in the church where they belong and out of the scientific community.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by izoakl, posted 10-16-2002 9:40 PM izoakl has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 58 of 78 (20492)
10-22-2002 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by nator
10-21-2002 9:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
All I am going to say is that anyone who claims to understand the bad acid trip that is the Book of Revelations is talking out of their arse.
Just wanted to say thanks for writing "arse" - made me quite nostalgic for home.
And of course you're right about Saint John the Crackhead ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by nator, posted 10-21-2002 9:24 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 9:19 AM Mister Pamboli has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 78 (20537)
10-23-2002 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by nos482
10-21-2002 9:54 AM


quote:
Though, this is probably another case of something being taught as being from the bible which actually isn't in the the bible as stated. Since most Christians don't actually read it in any real depth, and aren't bible scholars, they will go mostly by what their clergy tells them. If you can't trust what your clergy says who can you trust?
Not really. If you mean by sermons by the clergy, sure, they usually aren't in any real depth. But many Christians are in Bible study groups, in which we study each book of the Bible (about 1/2 to 1 term to study one book). In these groups, we discuss and learn about them as a group-we did Revelation last year. Right now we're doing Deuteronomy (which you'd probably agree is one of the harder to understand books).
Anyway, if you've ever read the Left Behind fiction series (By Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins) about Armageddon, you quite quickly realize how Revelation is applicable. The series has sold >50 million books, so it shouldn't be too hard to find those apocalyptic fiction books (theres about 10 in the series right now). Anyway, even if you don't believe in Christianity, the books are a fun read. (Books #7,8,9,10 have all reached the #1 position on New York Times Bestseller list).
[This message has been edited by blitz77, 10-23-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nos482, posted 10-21-2002 9:54 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by nos482, posted 10-23-2002 7:52 AM blitz77 has not replied
 Message 64 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 9:27 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 78 (20543)
10-23-2002 4:22 AM


The problem with the "Left Behind" series, like the Perretti books a few years ago, is that too many folk read them as theology tomes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by nos482, posted 10-23-2002 7:54 AM Karl has not replied

  
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