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Author | Topic: Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts | |||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
Oh the straw man is now saying ancient = eyewitness? You must be joking. What idiocy, Mark, what doltish idiocy. The Mahabharata does not present itswelf as witness testimony, it presents itself as fiction. The Bible claims to be witness testimony from front to back and it contains a zillion and one clues to authenticate its claim. Please show me where the Mahabharata defines itself as fiction. Just to be sure you understand the difference. I think the bible is fiction, you think it is fact because it has eyewitness testimony. You think the Mahabharata is fiction, I am presenting it to you as fact onthe same basis that you present the bible to me. Of course many people think the Mahabharata is fiction, many also think it is a true account. It's obvious, if you think about it. If no-one thought the Hindu stories were true, then there wouldn't be Hindu's would there? Those Hindu's who believe their stories to be true accounts do so with EXACTLY the same the veracity as you. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
My point about the Bible is that its authors and protagonists are real historical people who witnessed and reported primarily upon real historical EVENTS that demonstrate the doings of God with His people -- both His actions and His communications. And my point is that the statement above is without factual merit. You can't even show me Moses existed. You keep giving us this wishy washy multiple corroboration of the characters, but can't show ANY of them are non-fiction. Ergo, they can not be considered eyewitnesses. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
YOu can't even prove the existence of your great grandfather. Same problem I'm not trying to convince you that my Great-Grandfather existed, so it's not the same problem. You however are trying to tell me that Moses existed & is an eyewitness to fantastic things, & provide no legitimate evidence whatsoever that he did. Specifically, you make the claim that there are eyewitnesses of Moses (the so-called internal corroboration), but present none that can actually be shown to be non-fictional themselves. Therefore, Moses as a once living person cannot be verified, & by definition cannot be an eyewitness. Ditto for the rest of the OT. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
Sorry but I know I'm right about a lot of it, and it's very wearying to take the endless commands to jump through hoops giving proof only to hear it wasn't good enough by some weird standard. Nothing I say will ever suffice here or even be minimally acceptable. You all raise one nitpicking irrelevant objection after another -- What!! You mean that being asked to show that Moses is a real life character, rather than a fictional one before any of his alleged writings can be considered "testimony" is nitpicking? How can you know Moses saw the Red Sea part, when you can't even establish his existence? Just because the bible is presented as fact doesn't make it so, especially when your lead characters doing the witnessing are as good as fictional. As someone else pointed out, how convenient it is that the book you want to be true gets to verify itself. Do yourself a favour & stay away from used car salesmen. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
The problem is with those who refuse to acknowledge his existence which has been attested to by millions over 3500 years. How the fuck would they know anything about it? And you accuse me of abusing rationality!
You can't tell real history from fiction, a genuine witness report from a hoax. Your entire argument is buggered, then, if that is the case. If we cannot tell if a historical text is true or false, then it cannot help us to deduce the truth or falsity of any given proposal. Moreover, if we cannot tell if a historical text is true or false, then pretty obviously we don't know if the alleged testimony is actual testimony, rather than a hoax. Therefore, the "testimony" cannot therefore be considered evidence because, as you have admitted, we cannot tell it from a hoax, & it cannot help us deduce the truth or falsity of anything. To put it another way. Evidence is data that supports a hypothesis, since something that cannot be shown to be true or false (by your own admission) cannot possibly support any hypothesis, your alleged "testimony" cannot be considered evidence. Does a bullethole in the foot hurt?
Prove that Attila the Hun existed. Prove that Genghis Khan existed. Prove that Cleopatra existed. You do believe they existed don't you? Well, then, prove it. The existence of all of the above are noted in records independent of each other. In other words, were I to have one record, I could hold reasonably hold it as being "iffy". If I have more than one, then I start having to take notice. If unrelated people are recording the same person, then there can be only one reason for it. There is, of course, a level of tentativity involved. The more independent evidence, the lower the tentativity. This is the point, Moses et al exist nowhere outside of a religious book. The book he appears in is internally inconsistent & makes fantastic claims. I need more. Even were you to establish the existence of Moses, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That he existed still gives me no reason to believe him. But first things first. Mark This message has been edited by mark24, 05-02-2005 06:49 AM There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
If we cannot tell if a historical text is true or false, then it cannot help us to deduce the truth or falsity of any given proposal.
One CAN tell, but YOU apparently can't if you make the perfectly asinine statement that nobody can tell whether Moses existed or not, the kind of asinine statement that the majority around here seem addicted to. You seem to forget that you wrote
You can't tell real history from fiction, a genuine witness report from a hoax. Given that you think the bible is a historical account, it would be difficult to catch you out in such a colossal contradiction.Then, after that, in post 266, you write Prove the coins were minted in that particular time by those particular entities. Probably minted hundreds of years later. No proof in any case that they depict someone who ever lived. You have no way of proving this, therefore she never existed. All a myth invented by the aristocracy to give the people a national identity and keep them in line. It is not possible to assume a more hypocritical position. I can't tell the difference, but I can, oh wait! I can't after all Will Faith's actual position please stand up. So can I tell a real history from fiction, or not? If yes, please tell me why you have contradicted yourself so completely in consecutive posts. If no, then the following statement from my last post stands. If we cannot tell if a historical text is true or false, then it cannot help us to deduce the truth or falsity of any given proposal. Moreover, if we cannot tell if a historical text is true or false, then pretty obviously we don't know if the alleged testimony is actual testimony, rather than a hoax. Therefore, the "testimony" cannot therefore be considered evidence because, as you have admitted, we cannot tell it from a hoax, & it cannot help us deduce the truth or falsity of anything. To put it another way. Evidence is data that supports a hypothesis, since something that cannot be shown to be true or false (by your own admission) cannot possibly support any hypothesis, your alleged "testimony" cannot be considered evidence.
Oh blah blah blah to your sophomoric lecture on evidence.
Indeed.
Oh really? Give me an example. You can't come up with ONE record of their existence. Come on, show me. Prove it. They are nothing but mythological figures invented to provide a romance for the peoples involved. Did Attila write anything? Did Ghenghis Khan? Produce their writings! For Moses we have five books of writings. Did Cleopatra write anything? Did somebody who knew them personally write about them? Why should I believe anything anybody wrote anyway? Why should I believe anything anybody says about anyone? These guys were all bigger than life. They simply couldn't have existed. Come on, produce the evidence! Again, you miss the point, which is to have independent evidence of the persons existence. I will take Cleopatra as an example. Cleopatra is mentioned by Plutarch in the Life of Mark Anthony, Suetonius also, in The Life of Augustus. Flavius Josephus mentions her in Bellum Judaicum VII, & Antiquitates Judaicae XIV-XV. Appianus: Bella Civilia III-V. Auctor Belli Alexandrini: 33. Appians Roman History (books 2-5), Do Cassius' Roman History , Velleius Paterculus, Roman History, Julius Caesar's own memoirs, to name the few contemporary accounts I found during a quick google. That she actually existed is not in question, there is ample independent, contemporary evidences (Mark Anthony & Julius would have been enough to make the point) of her existence, not so Moses.
FIND JUST ONE record of the existence ANY of those human beings listed that couldn't be shown to be a mere fiction. Come on, prove it. Take your own medicine. See above. & I always take my own medicine, Faith, we call it consistency. Unlike your we can’t tell real history from fiction because it suits you in one post, followed by oh yes we can in the next, followed, by, "oh no we can't" in the next.
Unrelated people? Let me guess that any original records you could conceivably find (and you can't even find one) would be by people who were related, people who claim to have been ravaged by the first two for instance, or people who get a kick out of having a Cleopatra in their tribe, though she's just a fiction they invented. Find me reports from anyone who isn't part of a tribe with a vested interest in maintaining these myths. Come on, prove it.
Done.
This is the point, Moses et al exist nowhere outside of a religious book. The book he appears in is internally inconsistent & makes fantastic claims. I need more.
More than 66 INDEPENDENT books written over 1500 years, over half of which refer back to Moses, more than millions who have believed it as fact, more than all the Jews who have believed it, among whom thousands have been named after Moses (How many have been named after Attila the Hun?), more than I don't know how many commentaries on the Pentateuch that treat him as a historical figure. Moses is VERY well attested to, FAR better than Attila the Hun et.al. The careful reader will notice that I wrote, Moses et al exist nowhere outside of a religious book. This under no definition of the phrase can be considered Very well attested. Once again, the bible CANNOT verify itself. But for the record, how can any book, independent or otherwise, be considered eyewitness testimony when written 1,500 years after the event? You really don’t have the foggiest logical notion of what is meant by, independent corroborating evidence, do you? Since I completed your challenge, perhaps you would be so good as to show me the extra-biblical evidence of Moses, that independent evidence?
This "religious book" is predominantly a HISTORY.
So says you, unfortunately there is no reason whatsoever to believe it is nothing more than a book of myths. Again, the bible cannot verify itself. That historical figures exist in it (I’m thinking Herod, Pontius, etc) in no way means that the rest of it is true. In fact, that the actual historical records do not verify the bibles account when it should, should tell you all you need to know. Lots of fiction is set against a historical background. Don’t you find it odd that all the fantastic things in the bible that most certainly would get all the ancients quills scribbling on their papyrus, never seem to? Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Jar,
Why not just start a continuation thread? Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith seems to hold to a hypocritical mindset that seems to be held by many creationists. A standard is applied & is held as good if it supports the bible, but when that same standard reveals something uncomfortable to the fundamentalist mindset, it’s rejected only in the second instance. Somehow the standard is still held as good when applied to the bible.
There were two specific instances where this occurred. Firstly, the Mahabharata, where a man meets with Vishnu & is told specific things that will come true. For some reason this isn’t eyewitness testimony, but anything allegedly written by Moses is. For the life of me I can’t see where the operational difference lies, both are presented as information being factual, & in the Mahabharata’s case the man is telling the story, ie. he testifies that he witnessed a conversation. Secondly I am told that we can’t tell real history from fiction (post 257), but the bible is real history. Hello-o? Any port in a mental storm, I suppose. I don’t think we are seeing anything different in Faith’s mental gymnastics that is any different from N.E. Other creationist. It is simply a case of standards not being, well, standards, since they cannot be applied universally & get the result Faith wants. For some reason Faith cannot see this contradiction. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Arachnophopbia,
I was speaking specifically about Moses & the Red Sea parting, rather than the entire bible. We can only conclude that Moses saw the Red Sea part if we accept that Moses saw the Red Sea part. There is no other way of verifying the text. We are forced to accept it on faith. Mark
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
I attribute to Mark24, an inability to judge authenticity, and a reliance on inappropriate tools for the job of judging the Bible. So how do I tell "real history" with a genuine eyewitness, from a myth purporting itself to be fact with a fictional eyewitness? What innappropriate tools of the job am I using, exactly, to judge the authenticity of the Moses account of the Red Sea parting? There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5215 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Faith,
Meanwhile it would behoove you to stop accusing people of hypocrisy based on your own stupidity. My apologies, I misread your post.
Some of us CAN read and CAN tell real history from fiction So I will ask you for the second time:
mark writes: So how do I tell "real history" with a genuine eyewitness, from a myth purporting itself to be fact with a fictional eyewitness? What innappropriate tools of the job am I using, exactly, to judge the authenticity of the Moses account of the Red Sea parting? It is, after all what this thread is about. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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