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Author Topic:   Why Belief?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 76 of 220 (205327)
05-05-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Jackal25
05-05-2005 3:04 PM


My point was that tv and radio is as far away from Christianity as it can get. I guess you agree.
Um, no. The exact opposite.
What I was saying is that you are wrong. Our TV is not as far from Christianity as you can get; in fact, most of what's on TV is Christianity in one form or another. So too with radio. Particularly down in Texas. The reason why you haven't noticed this is because what Schraf has been telling you is true - you were indoctrinated into Christianity. That's why you don't see all the Christianity on TV and radio - its transparent to you.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 220 (205335)
05-05-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
05-05-2005 11:58 AM


Radio dials
Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.
crashfrog writes:
In Texas? Yeah - like everywhere else in our country its "jesus jesus jesus god god god" almost 24-7.
Thats funny, cuz when I turn on my tv all I hear is sex sex sex, money, money, money! Of course, that stuff is transparant to you as well.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-05-2005 01:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Morte, posted 05-05-2005 6:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6102 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 78 of 220 (205390)
05-05-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-05-2005 3:39 PM


Re: Radio dials
Thats funny, cuz when I turn on my tv all I hear is sex sex sex, money, money, money! Of course, that stuff is transparant to you as well.
I'm afear'd that this thread will turn into an argument about this and go wildly off-topic, so I’d like to suggest that further discussion of TV/radio’s religious viewpoint go into another thread.
For the record, I think it really depends on the channels/shows you listen to or watch. Didn't someone here have that quote in their sig where Lewis Black on The Daily Show commented on some of the people at Fox opposing the immorality of some of the other shows on Fox?
But I would hardly say that radio/television is indicative of a particular area’s culture, in any case. One hardly needs to be immersed in Christian ideals constantly to be in a Christian culture.
There’s a prayer circle, organized entirely by students, at the local (public) high school in my area every once in a while before school in the morning (the local paper’s editor likes to flaunt the "utter piety" of our town and always seems to use this as an example). Some fundamentalists, some more moderate; but these, oftentimes, are the same students who enjoy such shows as That ‘70s Show, Seinfeld, Friends, anything on Comedy Central, and other shows that are generally considered secular in nature for their content. After all, these teenagers are Christians, but they're also still teenagers.
To take a wider scope, this town is generally considered ultraconservative and a "fundamentalist stronghold" of sorts, because the Christians here are very activist and Christian morality tends to dominate local politics. As well, you can't drive down a single block without seeing a couple of crosses on people's lawns, and there are churches nearly everywhere. I would be hard-pressed to call this anything but a Christian culture despite the availability, and even popularity, of more "secular" forms of entertainment (which seem to exist in any reasonably large town).
BTW, I'm sorry to hear about your health and I hope you can find the willpower and faith in yourself that you will need to change.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 79 by AdminBen, posted 05-05-2005 9:34 PM Morte has replied

  
AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 220 (205426)
05-05-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Morte
05-05-2005 6:37 PM


T O P I C !
I'm afear'd that this thread will turn into an argument about this and go wildly off-topic, so I’d like to suggest that further discussion of TV/radio’s religious viewpoint go into another thread.
Morte, perfect.
EXCEPT... next time you have something to say on the OFF-TOPIC part of this thread, instead of suggesting opening a new thread AND THEN RESPONDING, just open a new thread! It really is just that easy.
Dan in post 1 writes:
Why do you believe in your religion? I'm not asking for proof that it is true, but I'm curious as to what started you believing, for instance, that the Bible is actually the word of God.
Sure, faith is what sustains the belief. But what was the root of the belief itself?
This is a thread simply asking what is the root of individual people's beliefs. There are many other threads for argumentation about those beliefs. You can start a thread to talk about TV, Sex, and Religion. This thread is for little parables and personal memories.
It really is that easy, people.
This message has been edited by AdminBen, Friday, 2005/05/06 11:35 AM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Morte, posted 05-05-2005 6:37 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Morte, posted 05-05-2005 10:19 PM AdminBen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 220 (205431)
05-05-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 5:02 PM


Why?
This is actually a very great question.
The initial cause of my belief was nurture, I'd have to say. As a child, for as early as I can remember, Mom read us a Bible story before we went to bed at night. As the oldest, it was soon my job to help read the stories. They expanded pretty quickly to include the Just So Stories and they were given the same weight. Church was a weekly affair and pretty early I fell under the guidence of Joe Wood, one of the more remarkable priests I have known.
So the basis was set from birth if not before. As we grew older it became the custom for the older kids to read Bible stories to the younger ones and the adults would then read from the Bible with the older kids. Questions were always welcome but usually resulted in a reference for us to go look something up.
As a young kid I experimented with other Christian religions, our family was also deeply into both the Episcopal Church on Dad's side and the Presbyterian on Moms, but there were also forays into Baptist Churches where I became an RA (she had the most beautiful golden hair I've ever seen) and a stint at a Lutheran Church (she had dimples and freckles and pigtails and liked baseball and kites and played cowboys and indians and was the best dier of any of the kids) and my parents encourage such forays.
We lived in a Jewish neighborhood for much of my early years so it was impossible not to get some familiarity with the Jewish Faith. I joined in a Seder every year with friends and many times went with them to Synagogue (she had dark hair and an accent and smelled like flowers and her mom always had something baking and on the weekend I could come over and see her and run errands and turn on lights and do all kinds of stuff that she couldn't).
Then, at about what would be Middle School I went off to an Episcopal Boarding school, but I've talked enough about that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Morte
Member (Idle past 6102 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 81 of 220 (205434)
05-05-2005 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by AdminBen
05-05-2005 9:34 PM


Re: T O P I C !
EXCEPT... next time you have something to say on the OFF-TOPIC part of this thread, instead of suggesting opening a new thread AND THEN RESPONDING, just open a new thread! It really is just that easy.
To clarify: I was actually not trying to comment on the part that I felt was off-topic. I said further discussion of TV/radio’s religious viewpoint in reference to the preceding posts regarding whether or not such outlets are religious- or secular-based, which I felt might generate off-topic debate and did not share my opinion on.
The rest of my post, I feel, was on-topic in the thread. This thread, as you said, appears to be for discussing the roots of people’s religious beliefs, and it came up that one’s culture and environment would logically play a large role in determining what one believed. One post seemed to imply that culture simply consisted of television and music (Message 73):
quote:
When I grew up I never heard one think about Jesus or Christians. Our culture is as far away from Christianity as we can get. Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.
I was responding to say that it doesn't consist of just that, but of the behavior, belief, social traits, and values of those around you as well - which I feel is relevant because, to determine culture's role in the formation of one's beliefs, we need first to have a solid definition of what culture really is.
{Added in edit: I suppose I might not have been entirely clear that this was my purpose in the post; I meant the sentences, "But I would hardly say that radio/television is indicative of a particular area’s culture, in any case. One hardly needs to be immersed in Christian ideals constantly to be in a Christian culture." as the main point of the post but didn't particularly emphasize them in any way. The rest was just to give an example of what I meant.}
This message has been edited by Morte, 05-05-2005 10:30 PM

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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 220 (205458)
05-05-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Morte
05-05-2005 10:19 PM


Re: T O P I C !
Then I'd suggest next time replying to the on-topic post, and to cut the continued talk about TV. Given the line of posts previous to you, including the one you responded to, and your continued discussion of TV, it was hard for my little brain to figure out your purpose.
Also as a suggestion for you (and others here), phrasing things in the form of questions ("Was it really TV? Or was it some other factors, for example... ?") is much better for staying on topic than making "corrective" comments. These kinds of "corrective" comments do not obviously tie back into the original topic, and people responding to simply answer your comments will be off-topic. What is on-topic is a discussion of that person's experience.
Thanks.
Ben

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 220 (205467)
05-05-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jackal25
05-05-2005 11:29 AM


quote:
When I grew up I never heard one think about Jesus or Christians.
Did you grow up in the Middle East or India or something?
quote:
Our culture is as far away from Christianity as we can get.
What holidays did you celebrate and get vacations from school during?
quote:
Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.
Sure.
Ever open the phone book in any town in the US and count how many christian churces there are. In the medium/small town I live in there are a couple of hundred.
There isn't a single Hindu Temple and only a few mosques and Jewish temples.
How many Hindu temples or Mosques were in your home town?
quote:
I become a Christian because I always doubted people saying Jesus wasnt the Son of God having never gone to Church.
So, you never touched a bible, nor knew any of Christianities basic beliefs nor tenets before you decided to believe all of it?
Had you ever heard of the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, the Flood, the Three Wise men, the story of Job, Moses, the Plagues, Jesus' Crucifiction and rising on the third day, etc....
Nwever heard of any of that AT ALL before converting?
quote:
As I said earlier none of my family or friends did either. So to say oh you become a Christian because that is the dominint religion is a far cry from the truth.
Did you get vacation from school for Ramadan? How about for Sarasvati Puja or Siddhartha Buddha Day?
How many Buddhist meditation centers do you have in your town? Shinto shrines?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jackal25, posted 05-05-2005 11:29 AM Jackal25 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-06-2005 1:31 AM nator has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 220 (205475)
05-06-2005 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by nator
05-05-2005 11:43 PM


Wow, the guy can't say a thing about his own experience without you dogging his every move and telling him he's wrong -- about his own experience yet. According to you, he is a Christian because his culture is Christian and you are adamant about that. Nothing he says counts for anything.
He's right, it is very easy not to notice anything Christian in this culture, although it may be so obvious to you. I can say that I too had just about no sense at all of anything Christian in my environment before I became a believer. Yes, there were quite a few Christian churches in my town too, but I was only inside them when community events were held there and their Christian meaning hardly crossed my mind. After childhood I never went to a church service except to a Unitarian service once in a while because that was the thing to do among us "intellectual" types. I don't remember anything about it. I think it was pretty boring and irrelevant. In my case, however, I was in a trendy little town on the West Coast where there was every other kind of religion in evidence more than in most American towns, all the Eastern stuff, the New Age stuff. However, I only noticed those because I had friends who were involved in them, which I found irritating and depressing since in those days I was an atheist and considered all religion to be irrational and weird.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 05-05-2005 11:43 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 05-06-2005 9:00 AM Faith has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 220 (205538)
05-06-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
05-06-2005 1:31 AM


quote:
Wow, the guy can't say a thing about his own experience without you dogging his every move and telling him he's wrong -- about his own experience yet.
The largest determinant of what religion a person will identify with is the religion of his or her parents and local community in which he or she was raised.
This is simply a fact.
If it were not true, then we should se much less regional pattern and much less consistency over time of what religion people are.
quote:
According to you, he is a Christian because his culture is Christian and you are adamant about that. Nothing he says counts for anything.
To say one is not influenced AT ALL by the culture one is raised in WRT what religion one chooses among the thousands in existence is silly. It is particularly silly as it looks like he was born and raised in Texas. Last I checked, Texas is in the Bible Belt.
quote:
He's right, it is very easy not to notice anything Christian in this culture, although it may be so obvious to you.
Does the business you work in close for Ramadan? Do you have a cleric calling you to prayers five times a day from the minaret in the center of town? Do you see the Buddhists providing food for the monks at the Temple near where you were raised?
quote:
I can say that I too had just about no sense at all of anything Christian in my environment before I became a believer. Yes, there were quite a few Christian churches in my town too, but I was only inside them when community events were held there and their Christian meaning hardly crossed my mind.
But were you inside Jewish Temples, Mosques, Hindu Temples, Shinto shrines, or Buddhist temples just as much as the Churches?
quote:
After childhood I never went to a church service except to a Unitarian service once in a while because that was the thing to do among us "intellectual" types. I don't remember anything about it. I think it was pretty boring and irrelevant. In my case, however, I was in a trendy little town on the West Coast where there was every other kind of religion in evidence more than in most American towns, all the Eastern stuff, the New Age stuff. However, I only noticed those because I had friends who were involved in them, which I found irritating and depressing since in those days I was an atheist and considered all religion to be irrational and weird.
So, Christianity is, indeed, very dominant in our culture and these Eastern religions are considered "wierd" or "trendy"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-06-2005 1:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 05-06-2005 10:09 AM nator has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 220 (205552)
05-06-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by nator
05-06-2005 9:00 AM


quote:
Wow, the guy can't say a thing about his own experience without you dogging his every move and telling him he's wrong -- about his own experience yet.
The largest determinant of what religion a person will identify with is the religion of his or her parents and local community in which he or she was raised.
This is simply a fact.
If it were not true, then we should see much less regional pattern and much less consistency over time of what religion people are.

Yes, so nobody can say one thing about his/her own experience without being told that he's lying if his experience doesn't conform to the statistics.
quote:
According to you, he is a Christian because his culture is Christian and you are adamant about that. Nothing he says counts for anything.
To say one is not influenced AT ALL by the culture one is raised in WRT what religion one chooses among the thousands in existence is silly. It is particularly silly as it looks like he was born and raised in Texas. Last I checked, Texas is in the Bible Belt.

I see. You know all about him. He knows nothing. And of course he's lying if he doesn't immediately agree with your statistical way of understanding everything.
quote:
He's right, it is very easy not to notice anything Christian in this culture, although it may be so obvious to you.
Does the business you work in close for Ramadan? Do you have a cleric calling you to prayers five times a day from the minaret in the center of town? Do you see the Buddhists providing food for the monks at the Temple near where you were raised?

Complete irrelevance. The point is that if a person tells you he became a Christian completely independent of the culture the not-only-polite but reasonable thing to do is believe him.
quote:
I can say that I too had just about no sense at all of anything Christian in my environment before I became a believer. Yes, there were quite a few Christian churches in my town too, but I was only inside them when community events were held there and their Christian meaning hardly crossed my mind.
But were you inside Jewish Temples, Mosques, Hindu Temples, Shinto shrines, or Buddhist temples just as much as the Churches?

I'm sure your reasoning makes sense to you but it's bogus. The people I hung out with were "progressives" who disdained Christianity as so many at EvC do. One of my friends was raised in a Jewish atheist family and went through a pseudo-Christian cult before settling into a New Age spirituality. One was raised Southern Baptist and is now a Buddhist priestess. Two raised nominally Christian lived in a Hindu ashram for many years. All those raised Christian that I can think of otherwise went through some New Agey kind of spirituality and settled into atheism. Also, do you know how many Baptists there are in China now? Let's put it this way: statistics lie about the things that really matter.
quote:
After childhood I never went to a church service except to a Unitarian service once in a while because that was the thing to do among us "intellectual" types. I don't remember anything about it. I think it was pretty boring and irrelevant. In my case, however, I was in a trendy little town on the West Coast where there was every other kind of religion in evidence more than in most American towns, all the Eastern stuff, the New Age stuff. However, I only noticed those because I had friends who were involved in them, which I found irritating and depressing since in those days I was an atheist and considered all religion to be irrational and weird.
So, Christianity is, indeed, very dominant in our culture and these Eastern religions are considered "wierd" or "trendy"?

Kindly read my last sentence again. You seem to have missed the "all" in "all religion." And yes, Eastern religions were indeed very trendy at the time.
Nobody is denying that Christianity is dominant in our culture, more or less still though dying fast, but you are missing the point that it is very possible to grow up in this once-Christian culture and it have zero impact. It's simply a meaningless cultural backdrop with no more religious influence than all the McDonalds and KFCs in every town. Really becoming a Christian is a very big thing that has nothing to do with culture. It is not something you choose. it is something that happens to you. If you would like to understand it at all, you should listen to those who have been through it. But of course if you just prefer sounding erudite without knowing a thing, keep going with the statistics.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2005 10:20 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2005 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 05-06-2005 9:00 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 05-07-2005 7:37 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 220 (205561)
05-06-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by nator
05-06-2005 9:00 AM


And P.S., concerning my own experience, it was not easy to become a Christian because of my circle of "progressive" friends. I put off facing the fact myself that that's the direction I was headed in for quite some time because of the disdain people around me felt for Christianity in particular. Any other religion would have been acceptable. I was arriving at my belief strictly through reading books on religion. A couple of friends gave me books arguing in favor of Gnosticism and universalism to try to steer me away from where they feared I was headed, but I'd already read most of that stuff by that point on my own. And this was way before I even set foot inside a church. Psychologically it was something like how I suppose it would be if you, say, or Percy, or some others here, were to begin thinking maybe fundamentalist/evangelical Bible-believing Christianity is right after all.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2005 10:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Jackal25, posted 05-06-2005 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 88 of 220 (205578)
05-06-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
05-01-2005 8:52 AM


Re: Why Belief?
"In my mind, prayer...and God...are all that can rescue me. I am unimpressed with psychologists. What would you do?"
Phat,
Been gone so long I've forgotten how to do fancy quotes. Last Decemeber my fasting blood sugar was elevated, a sign of insulin resistance, or pre type II diabetes. I'll tell you what I did. I started checking books out of the library and reading.
I learned about diet and exercise and began experimenting. I found I needed to walk a lot faster in order to get pulse and metabolism up and I now walk to work fast enough to sweat and thus get about half an hour or more exercise each day. I don't like exertion but I like how I feel after exerting.
I reduced my indulging in Hagen Das Ice Cream, donuts, chips, bread and butter, cookies, and convenient foods that used refined chemicals from flour to all the unpronouncable chemicals,etc. I even did the Atkins carb restriction diet for a while. I have lost about 30 pounds and intend to lose at least 10 more. I've been reading T. Colin Campbell's THE CHINA STUDY and have decided to try a whole plant food diet for awhile.
Type II diabetes is largely a disease that results from an "affluent" lifestyle that is at odds with what the body needs. How much have you studied this? What exercise options have you looked into? What diet changes have you tried? I love Hagen Das ice cream but not enough to go on to develop diabetes with all the health impacts it can have.
If you want more book titles to read let me know. The thing is that I've already found with the changes I made that I feel a lot better. I'm enjoying being 30 pounds lighter and in better condition. As far as self discipline goes Albert Ellis who is diabetic and a therapist has some good approaches in his books on Rational Emotive Therapy.
Diabetes is a condition that can be changed. Think of it as your body telling you it needs more exercise and better foods. The refined sugars, flours, etc are just overwelming it. Get the idea in your head that you need to become lean. Body fat has bad metabolic consequences for you.
Try little changes, read, experiment, get out and move! This is really a condition you can change. My best to you on this.
lfen
ABE: And have you studied glycemic index and glycemic load? Learning about how different foods effect blood sugar is very helpful.
This message has been edited by lfen, 05-06-2005 12:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 220 (205583)
05-06-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
05-06-2005 10:35 AM


Thanks for the help Faith. I hate to see I have a reply to my messages just because I know they will pick apart every word I say. Its also hard to get Christian support on these boards and that is one reason why I left for awhile. Im thinking I need to take my location of my profile, they see I am from Texas and and assume that I am a Christian who loves Bush. Im not saying Im not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-06-2005 10:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-06-2005 12:24 PM Jackal25 has not replied
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 Message 98 by nator, posted 05-07-2005 7:35 PM Jackal25 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 220 (205588)
05-06-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 5:02 PM


quote:
Why do you believe in your religion? I'm not asking for proof that it is true, but I'm curious as to what started you believing, for instance, that the Bible is actually the word of God.
Sure, faith is what sustains the belief. But what was the root of the belief itself?
Since I've already started to say something about this to schrafinator above, I might as well make it official. The root of my belief was simply believing it's the truth. I was persuaded by many books I read that the Bible really is the word of the one and only God, but it took a while to get there.
I came to this belief from total atheism that disdained all religions. One day I simply believed what I read in a couple of books by Hindu gurus where they were saying, each from a different Hindu school, that God is real and something they had experienced personally. That set me on a quest to find God.
What God was I had no clear idea. I wasn't really attracted to the Hindu methods though I did read further in them for a while. I had some idea that God is "Universal Mind" that came off my reading in Hinduism, which is not a bad working model. I'm sure my idea of God as a Person was conditioned from my churchgoing as a child but otherwise I wasn't at all attracted to Christianity at first. I assumed all religions worshiped the same God and it was just a matter of finding what appealed to me most, not a matter of truth.
But eventually I had to realize that it WAS a matter of truth as there were too many contradictions between the various relgions. Eventually I ran into the Problem of Evil -- how can God exist and evil also? As I turned from the Eastern religions and various cultic and occultic writings to Christianity I began to find satisfying answers to that question. And the answer to that question makes clear why humanity needs a Savior.

This message is a reply to:
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